The Truth About the Biblical Act of Predestination.

God has always had a few people predestinated for special service to Him, but everyone else must choose to come to Him. And salvation is open to all living. Jesus said "whoever" many times, but not one "whoever if elect". In the most-famous verse in the Bible, John 3:16, He said "whoever believes", NOT "whoever believes & is elect".. In BC times, those who turned from sin & began earnestly worshipping God obtained His forgiveness by their change of heart & the offering of sacrifices, til Jesus came & fulfilled all sacrificial requirements for everyone with the sacrifice of Himself.

You may holler "dispy" all you want, but the fact is, in BC times, one obtained salvation differently from qbtaining it after Jesus came.

And when one obtains salvation, one becomes a citizen-elect of the Kingdom of God.

 

I thought you wanted to discuss the meaning of the word “predestined”. I gave you the meaning of the word. I gave you the context in which it was used.

You dismissed that out of hand by saying “I don’t believe that” and “that is false.”

Your understanding that the English word “pre” destined means the passage is talking about a destination.

The Greek word has nothing to do with travel language. The Greek word refers to construction of a building. That is the TRUTH you dismiss because it doesn’t advance your faulty reasoning.

So, I have given you the truth about the biblical meaning of “predestined”, which is the name of the thread.

You will accept it or not. I cannot do more.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to yiu

 

I saw where I had a reply from "AVL1984" and immediately thought "what a mean person".

Then I read your replies.

So, maybe I was wrong...

 

There comes a point, I think, when it is not beneficial to continue a discussion.

I admit to being easily offended at times, and I would lash out. I’m trying to do better.

This thread was not started, imo, to better understand the meaning of the word “predestined”, but rather to push a different meaning not supported by word usage or meaning and certainly void of scriptural cintext.

I’m going to bow out now. If it continues to be a contest of ever increasing insults, maybe you should to. Your scripture references and arguments according to sound biblical doctrine will never be accepted.

This thread is simply another “Calvinist slayer” thread, imo.

peace to you

 

I have been discussing the word predestination but I haven't been defining it as "travel," like you are claiming. Predestination is a predetermined glorification of a person who has been made into the image of Jesus Christ by receiving a new body. I have stated that predestination is in the context of glorification, the end of the earthly experience of the church of Jesus Christ when the mortal body is changed into a body "like unto His glorious body." It is the blessed hope of the Christian individually and the church corporately. If you think I have not made this case from the scriptures then you are in far worse condition with your ability to reason and to follow a logical presentation of information than I originally thought.

When you make a statement like this;

"I thought you wanted to discuss the meaning of the word “predestined”. I gave you the meaning of the word. I gave you the context in which it was used.
You dismissed that out of hand by saying “I don’t believe that” and “that is false."

You are being dishonest and you are attempting to have people think this is all I have said about this word.

You have only rambled on about the Greek word and it's meaning and have not even attempted to demonstrate that meaning in the context in which the word is found.

The image of Jesus Christ at his resurrection is in a body that has been quickened by the Spirit of God. It is a glorified body. While we who are saved today and are in Christ are indeed a trinity, a soul and body and Holy Spirit as one in three and three in one, our body is not yet glorified either individually or corporately. We are predestined to have that new body and be joined to our head, Jesus Christ, all at one time at this time in history.

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That would be all those since the beginning of the church in Acts 2 until the Lord comes for us in the clouds. The ones who have died and whose bodies have been buried, the corruptible, and those who are alive at his coming, those who are alive and yet live in mortal bodies.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The dispensation of the fullness of time is when the church will be exempted from the law of sin and death. We will not be subject to sin any longer and we will not be subject to death any longer.

The rules will have changed for the church of Jesus Christ in the fullness of times.

The problem with dealing with some of you folks is that you do not know the scriptures well enough to present your points. I say it because it is true but with as much grace towards you as I can muster.

 

You say that someone is Predestined to Glorification, but that there is no way they were Predestined to salvation.

Then, you say that someone Predestined to Glorification, but not Predestined to salvation, in the first place, is demonstrating your ability to reason and to follow a logical presentation of information:

Someone is just Predestinated to have a new body:

...even though, God in the scriptures never indicates that He Determined who would be Predestinated, then Called, then Justified, then Glorified(?)

What ingratiating manner you have.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us* with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us* in him before the foundation of the world, that we* should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us* unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us* accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood*, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

*the Predestinated, then Called, then Justified, to salvation in this life, saved saints, NOW.

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified**"

**with the Predestined Glorification you are, exclusively, imbibed with.

So be it.

You can't worship a God Who Predestinated His children to assure their salvation.

Too bad.

That inability is on you.

Regardless of whether it was Predestined, by the Determinant Counsel and Foreknowledge of God.

God is not the author of the sin of unbelief.

Man is.

 

Predestination is a NT word and doctrine. It is a word that is associated with the church of Jesus Christ. It did not appear in the written word of God until 58 AD in the context of the Jews who had been given the Holy Spirit to indwell them. The word did not appear in the previous 44 books of the Bible. It appeared in the early days of the 5th Millennium. God began to talk about it some 28 years after the first Jew was saved by the blood of Christ and 18 years after the first gentile was saved by the blood of Christ. There was still an Israel and there were still gentile nations at the time. The Jew and the gentile Christians were equal in standing, which were children of God by being born of the Spirit. They were baptized by the Spirit into one body called the church of Jesus Christ, among other things. The church is fashioned in this age and will finally be complete. She is the body and bride of Christ in the same way that Eve was the bride of Adam, taken from his body and fashioned by God into a full grown woman and then presented to Adam by God as his wife. The church was predestinated to that same eventuality from her beginning in Acts 2.

You may excel in this argument because you are smarter than me, but you cannot win the war with the ammo you have. You are in need of repentance. There will still be an Israel to save and nations for God to save after Jesus has taken his bride to the Father's house.

 

To your first point I present your post #14:

I realize you may not understand it, but that is travel language. The Greek word translated into English as “predestined” has no connection to such travel language.

To your second point, I haven’t “rambled” at all. I gave you the very meaning of the word as “marked out beforehand”. It is a term used for building or construction. I very specifically told you how it was used in the first century and how those believers in Rome and Ephesus would have readily understood the word.

For someone claiming to start a thread about the TRUTH about the biblical meaning of “predestined”, I thought you might actually have been interested in the biblical meaning of “predestined”. I see now you have no desire to understand the biblical meaning of “predestined”, but rather push your version of what you think it means according to your theology.

To your third point, just because you say doesn’t make it true, except in your own mind and you have consistently demonstrated you cannot muster any grace at all when debating people who disagree with you.

Now, I am willing to bow out and let you continue your thread without me.

Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

Yes, and one thing I have found VERY PROFITABLE is the "Ignore" button.

Saves me from listening to "The Roman's Road", with Justified by Faith
from Romans 3:21-26, being "used" for Easy Believism four times a day, while demanding obliviousness to Romans 3:10-19.

Doing that more and bowing out of all these spitballs, under the auspices of "the fiery darts of the wicked"(!), may really help me to "be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand". (Ephesians 6)

And although we stand upon the shoulders of God's men who came before us, as I have adapted here from Predestination
our attempt has been to:

"I. To demonstrate our elevated and intellectual sense of humor and engage in benevolent sarcasm toward said objectors and dissenters in an effort to free them from self-delusion and unjustified arrogance. Throughout our interactions, we seek to expose three severe problems of these antagonists.

"A. Their unbounded arrogance,

"B. Their lack of perception and/or candor in the representation of arguments,

"C. Their tacitly blasphemous view of the authority of divine revelation."

Then, as you say, "There comes a point, I think, when it is not beneficial to continue a discussion".

Yeah, and we often forget on here of the instruction from the scripture;

"A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject";
Titus 3:10.

It's even against the Dr. Bob's rules to use the word, "heretic" in the
Bible Versions & Translations forum!

Good rules. Better than the prerequisite boundaries and parameters the dissenters HAVE to try to IMPOSE on us.

"1. If you are going to start a thread in this forum, you must be clearly identified as a Baptist since this is a Baptist-Only area.

"2. As such, only BAPTISTS are allowed to post on any thread in this Forum. Non-baptists may feel free to start a thread on the same subject in the "Other Religions" forum.

"3. Do not start a thread with an attack or a flame as your premise. This is in violation of BB rules.

"4. Do not bring dirty laundry from another forum into this forum. This one has enough of its own.

"5. Remember that we're presenting ideas and not destroying people. Teach patiently as 2 Tim 2 says, or don't post at all.

"6. Do not attack the other poster; if you want to question the opinion, that's fine. But do so in a God-honoring way. Don't attack the person; the goal is to build up and win for the truth's sake.

"7. It is not acceptable to question someone's salvation relative to Bible preference. KJVOs have said, "Get saved and you'll understand 17th century English." MVs have said, "If you were as spiritual as me, you'd leave the KJV behind." Neither will be tolerated.

"8. Stop turning every single thread into a KJV vs. all other versions discussion. If it's off-topic, it's going in the trash. Continual violations of this will result in discipline.

"9. Certain terms are off-limits in this forum.
For example:

1. The KJVO crowd will not refer to the Modern Versions as "perversions," "satanic," "devil's bibles," etc...nor call those that use them "Bible correctors," "Bible doubters," etc.
2. The MV crowd will not refer to the KJVOs as "cults," "heretics," "sacrilegious," etc...nor refer to the KJV in derisive terms such as "King Jimmy's Bible," "Pickled Preserved Version," etc."

More rules then:...

"If you have a problem with any of these basic rules of civility and Christian courtesy, you know where the door is. If you violate them, you will be SHOWN where the door is."

...
Ephesians 6:

"10 "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
...

18 "Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

19 "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

20 "For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak."

 

That's not saying much for Adam and all The Old Testament saints.

I refer to this and post it sometimes to show that the born-again saints in The Old Testament all had:

Salvation and Redemption by Christ,
Justification by the Righteousness of Christ,
Forgiveness of sin through Faith in Christ,
Regeneration, spiritual circumcision, and Sanctification,
& Eternal life.


Excerpts from: Doctrinal Divinity~Book 4: by John Gill, Chapter 1:

The Manifestation and Administration of the Covenant of Grace

"The Covenant of Grace is but one and the same in all ages, of which Christ is the substance; being given for "a covenant of the people", of all the people of God, both Jews and Gentiles, who is "the same" in the "yesterday" of the Old Testament, and in the "today" of the New Testament, and "forever";

"he is "the way, the truth, and the life", the only true way to eternal life; and there never was any other way made known to men since the fall of Adam;

"no other Name under heaven has been given or will be given, by which men can be saved".

"The patriarchs before the flood and after, before the law of Moses and under it, before the coming of Christ, and all the saints since, are saved in one and the same way, even "by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ";

...
"1e. In the blessings of the Eternal Covenant of Grace; they are the same under both administrations.

"Salvation and Redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed under the one as under the other, #2Sa 23:5 Heb 9:15.

"Justification by the Righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament church had knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the new, #Isa 45:24,25 Ro 3:21-23.

"Forgiveness of sin through Faith in Christ, all the prophets bore witness to; and the saints of old, as now, had as comfortable an application of it, #Ps 32:1,5 Isa 43:25 Mic 7:18 Ac 10:43.

"Regeneration, spiritual circumcision, and Sanctification were what men were made partakers of under the first, as under the second administration of the covenant, #De 30:6 Php 3:3.

"Eternal life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the New; and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former, as of the latter dispensation, #Joh 5:39 Heb 11:10,16 Job 19:26,27.

"In a word, they and we eat the same spiritual meat, and drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4."

In The Hope of Israel [1929] by Philip Mauro.

"The writer seeks, at the very outset of this study, to impress the reader with the immense importance of the question we are about to examine.

"It is not merely a question of the true explanation of prophecies concerning the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Church of God, however so interesting and important these may be, for one may entertain mistaken ideas as to such matters without harmful consequences.

"But it is far otherwise with the question discussed in this volume; for the truth concerning the gospel of Christ and the salvation of man is involved in it.

"And especially, the work of evangelization of the Jews (which, in the opinion of many, including the present writer, the coming of the Lord awaits) is vitally affected by it.

"What lies directly in the path of our present inquiry is a system of doctrine which, though of recent origin, is now accepted amongst strictly orthodox Christians, "Fundamentalists", according to which doctrinal system the promise of God to Israel through their prophets was that the coming Messiah would restore the earthly kingdom to Israel, would give it a glory far surpassing that of the days of David and Solomon, and would exalt the Jewish nation to the place of supremacy over the nations of the world. Rev. 13:8)...", etc., etc.

 

Predestination

"The Bible addresses us in plain and intelligible language. While there are many mysteries in it that angels desire in vain to look into and many things difficult to be understood which the perverse frequently wrest to their own destruction, those truths which pertain to eternal life are revealed in the most unambiguous language. God does not dishonor Himself and trifle with His creatures by making their salvation depend upon the reception of doctrines that are either unintelligible or contradictory. His system of heavenly truth is harmonious and consistent and revealed with perspicuity and precision. Commencing here on earth with the first "principles of the doctrine of Christ" —with "repentance from dead works and faith toward God," it ascends a glorious chain, each link shining more brightly as it rises into the pure heavens above until it glitters in the effulgence that shines from God’s throne. We are not only commanded to search the scriptures, but we are encouraged by the promise that we shall know if we follow on to know the Lord.

"...Professing Christians (sometimes unconsciously) not infrequently form in advance an idea in their minds—drawn from the teachings of others or from their own reflections—of the character of God and of the doctrines which he ought to promulgate and then afterward consult the Bible to prove that their views are correct; and some carry their presumption to such daring lengths as to reject the Bible if it fails to sustain them in their positions. May not those opinions, which would rob Christ of His divinity, which deny the doctrine of the trinity—and those others which would make eternal life the portion of all mankind, have their origin here?

"...Let these premises be granted (and we see not how they can be denied) and Predestination comes in like a flood.

"1. God, as the governor of the world, administers all things according to his sovereign pleasure.

"He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

"2. "He did not merely decree that general laws should be established for the government of the world, but he settled the application of those laws to all particular cases." Our days are numbered, and so are the hairs of our heads. His providence takes cognizance of, and controls everything however minute (Ps. 135:6;Acts 17:25,26,28; Matthew 6:26,30, &c). "It upholds, directs, disposes, and governs all creatures, actions and things, from the greatest even to the least."

"3. Now, as known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world, and, as he is immutable in his nature, it follows that what he does in time he determined to do from eternity—that his providence is but the enforcement of those laws and the revealment of those plans, which existed before the world was. Finally, it follows that "whatever occurs in time was fore-ordained before the beginning of time."

"In reference to men, predestination is divided into two parts:

1st—as it relates to the elect,
and 2nd—as it relates to the non-elect.

"Having decreed to create a world and to people it with beings who would voluntarily sin against him, he determined from eternity to save some and to leave others to perish in their sins.

"Willing to show his wrath and to make his power known,"

God "endured with much long-suffering"

these as "the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on"

those as "the vessels of mercy which he had afore prepared unto glory" (Rom. 9:22-23).

"To carry out his purpose of grace, he chose some to holiness and eternal life, entered for their sake into the Covenant of Redemption with the Son and the Holy Ghost, appointed his Son as their substitute, to suffer in their stead, and, having died, to rise again and appear as their advocate before his throne, appointed all the intermediate means necessary and, by an infallible decree, made their salvation sure.

"Those "whose names are not written in the book of life" (Rev. 20:15),

who are "appointed to wrath" (1 Thess. 5:9),

who were "before of old ordained to condemnation" (Jude 4),

who would "stumble at the word, being disobedient, whereunto also they were appointed" (1 Pet. 2:8), He determined to leave in their sins and to endure them with much long-suffering as vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

"The elect are chosen, not because God foresees faith and good works in them; but in part that they might have faith and might perform good works: or, in the language of the Confession of Faith, quoted by our author:

"God hath chosen them in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto."

God’s act in electing some and not others is to be resolved into his sovereign will. "He hath mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth" (Rom. 9:18).

"While, by an immutable decree. He has made all things in time fixed and sure, all this occurs in perfect consistency with the free agency of the creature, and God is not the author of sin. The elect are, by the influence of sovereign grace, made willing in the day of God’s power and those not elected have no active principle of disobedience imparted to them, and feel no restraint upon their wills—they are simply passed by, and permitted to follow the inclinations of their own hearts.

"While they work out God’s purposes, they do it unconsciously and wickedly.

"Him" (Christ) "being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23).

 

I know I've already posted this, I just don't remember if I have already bugged you over it.

I refer to this and just post it sometimes to show that there is One Way of salvation and that the born-again saints in The Old Testament all had:

"1e. In the blessings of the Eternal Covenant of Grace; they are the same under both administrations.

"Salvation and Redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed under the one as under the other, #2Sa 23:5 Heb 9:15.

"Justification by the Righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament church had knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the new, #Isa 45:24,25 Ro 3:21-23.

"Forgiveness of sin through Faith in Christ, all the prophets bore witness to; and the saints of old, as now, had as comfortable an application of it, #Ps 32:1,5 Isa 43:25 Mic 7:18 Ac 10:43.

"Regeneration, spiritual circumcision, and Sanctification were what men were made partakers of under the first, as under the second administration of the covenant, #De 30:6 Php 3:3.

"Eternal life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the New; and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former, as of the latter dispensation, #Joh 5:39 Heb 11:10,16 Job 19:26,27.

"In a word, they and we eat the same spiritual meat, and drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4."

 

"To mark out beforehand." That reminds me of Revelation 7:3.

“Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

God has marked His children.

 

A few?
How about, every person who has ever believed. That's billions of people.

 

He's saying that he believes that the word "predestinated" in the Bible is only to indicate that some few people were "predestinated for special service", but not predestinated to personal salvation.

Then, to aquire 'salvation' I believe IMHO that he actually says, "everyone else must choose to come to Him."

He had already pointed out that he believes the O.T. folks were saved by works, but he might not say or maybe he does that "everyone else must choose to come to Him" is works.

If so, then he has "works"; " justified by works" as one process to attain salvation.

There is One Way that is true, it's just that "works" ain't it, as you know.

 

to point 1) above

Thanks for that. Your view of predestination cannot be supported with the scriptures, and thankfully, you have not tried. I will continue to deal with predestination from Ephesians where God addresses the subject in a gentile context and under the dispensation of the grace of God, showing where Jesus Christ on the cross exempted his church from the law of commandments contained in ordinances, nailing it to his cross, thus allowing God to bless the Jews and the gentiles equally as children of God in the same place, the body of Christ and temple of the Holy Spirit..

Eph 2:14 For he (Jesus Christ) is our peace (Jew and gentile), who (Jesus Christ) hath made both (Jews and gentiles) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us (Jew and gentile);
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself (in his body) of twain (Jew and gentiles) one new man, so making peace (between the two);
16 And that he (Jesus Christ) might reconcile both (Jew and gentile) unto God (the Father) in one body (the body of Jesus Christ) by the cross, having slain the enmity (the law of commandments contained in ordinances) thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (gentiles), and to them that were nigh (Jews).
18 For through him (Jesus Christ) we both (Jews and gentiles in the body) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now. (since he has done that) therefore ye (plural = gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (Jewish believers), and of the household (family by the new birth) of God;

Honestly, if one can accept the definition of "dispensation," which I posted earlier, can one not see why God calls this the dispensation of the grace of God. The former rules for the Jews have been exempted and made so gentiles will be able to abide the new household rules. Here is the definition again.

Dispensation = Exemption from a rule or usual requirement.

I have told more truth in this thead for the purpose of helping Baptists to see the truth and I do not have a single like.

Look at the exemption in verse 15. Baptists, do not harden your hearts against the truth. Repent and abandon this false doctrine that does not consider the words of scripture and does not honor context.

 

….
Now I remember why I stopped replying to your posts.

No amount of scriptural truth can penetrate your preconceived, unbiblical beliefs. Please continue your thread without me.

peace to you

 

I will as I have time. I do hope you will check in and keep up with the conversation because you are one of the people I would like to help.

 

There you go, canadyjd, you almost missed, "the new household rules".

Forums BAPTIST DEBATE FORUMS (BAPTIST ONLY).

General Posting Rules (from May 19, 2006)

1. If you are going to start a thread in this forum, you must be clearly identified as a Baptist since this is a Baptist-Only area. As such, only BAPTISTS are allowed to post on any thread in this Forum. Non-Baptists may feel free to start a thread on the same subject in the "Other Religions" forum.

Baptist Theology & Bible Study

 

Most Baptists have already helped themselves all they want to the Scofield Reference Bible.

If we still have one, (I use one) we have learned to read it only from the top down and not the bottom (References) up.

We know.