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Featured The Vain Fool, Child of Pride, Son of Folly Who Replies Against God's Sovereignty

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by KenH, Nov 11, 2022.

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  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?....Romans 9:20.

    The sovereignty of God, in dispensing his grace to whom he pleaseth, and which he oweth to none, ever has been a subject of contention. Unawakened people, with self-righteous hearts, and stubborn free-will pride, rise with indignation of spirit, daringly call in question the ways of God to man, and impiously reply against God, as though he had not an absolute right to do what he will with his own, and confer his favors when, and on whom he pleases. “Ye shall be as gods,” says the father of lies... Genesis 3:5. Our first parents believed him. They have tainted our whole race with this proud lie. Hence the poet most sarcastically says, to repliers against God,

    Snatch from his hand the balance and the rod,
    Rejudge his justice, be the god of God.

    Paul meets such: he puts a question to them: he demands an answer from them. Who art thou? The Lord in the sovereignty of grace, and with the glory of his majesty, issues his royal proclamation from heaven, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy: and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” Now who? what art thou who darest to reply? What! Reply against God? What thou, O man; worm of the earth: a creature of a day; born like a wild ass’s colt, without understanding: by nature a child of wrath, dead in trespasses and sins, blind to thy own existence: thou vain fool, thou child of pride, and son of folly, dost thou exalt thy ignorance, and display thy enmity, by opening thy mouth against God, his truths and his ways? This is one of the severest reproofs of the holy Spirit in the whole Bible: improve it. Remember there is “a woe to him who striveth with his Maker.”....Isaiah 45:9. Know, you have nothing you can properly call your own, but sin:. that is the parent of ignorance and pride. Wilt thou exalt these against the wisdom and grace of God? Shall our corrupt reason reply against God, call him to an account for his ways, and say unto him, what doest thou? Consider, have we not forfeited all right to God’s favor? Does any good thing dwell in our nature to entitle us to his mercy? O fall down and bless God for the merciful gift of his son Jesus. Adore the riches of his abundant mercy, that “at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace; and if by grace, then it is no more of works, otherwise grace is no more grace.” etc....Romans 11:5-6.

    While others wrangle and reply,
    Against thy sov’reign ways, O Lord:
    O bring my spirit down from high.
    To feed by faith upon thy word!

    Dear Spirit, teach my soul the truth,
    As it in Christ my Saviour is:
    O thou, my God, guide of my youth,
    Preserve from proud rebellious lies.

    - William Mason, A Spiritual Treasury For The Children of God, Volume 2, December 13
     
    #1 KenH, Nov 11, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2022
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  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Baptistboard has it's share of these.
     
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  3. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    The King James Bible, the most accurate translation we have, does not use the word sovereign. It is evident that Jesus died for all people, as Hebrews says He "tasted death for every man". If God passed over whom you say are the "non-elect", there would be no need for Him to harden people's hearts, as their hearts would already be hard enough for condemnation, and they would never obey God.
     
  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    No. If Christ died for all people, then all people will be ultimately be saved.
     
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  5. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    Which Bible verse tells you that?
     
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    It also does not use the world Trinity, yet all true believers acknowledge the Trinity as being true doctrine.
     
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  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    God cannot demand payment twice for sins. If Christ has paid the sin debt for a person, then that debt is totally, absolutely paid in full.

    "From whence this fear and unbelief,
    If God, my Father, put to grief
    His spotless Son for me?
    Can He, the righteous Judge of men,
    Condemn me for that debt of sin
    Which, Lord, was charged to Thee?

    Complete atonement Thou hast made,
    And to the utmost farthing paid
    Whate’er Thy people owed;
    How, then, can wrath on me take place,
    If sheltered in God’s righteousness,
    And sprinkled by Thy blood?

    If Thou hast my discharge procured,
    And freely in my place endured
    The whole of wrath divine;
    Payment God will not twice demand,
    First at my bleeding Surety’s hand,
    And then again at mine.

    Turn then, my soul, unto thy rest;
    The merits of thy great High Priest
    Speak peace and liberty;
    Trust in His efficacious blood,
    Nor fear thy banishment from God,
    Since Jesus died for thee."

    - a hymn written by Augustus Toplady
     
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  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    What verse?

    Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
     
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  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    What verse?

    1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

    Who are the "we", the "us", the "our"? The Christians that John was writing to.
     
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  10. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    The concept of unconditional election is completely absent from that verse.
     
  11. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    "and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world", it says in another verse in 1 John.
     
  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    You didn't ask about the doctrine of election. Are you changing your question?
     
  13. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    It says nowhere in the Bible that Christ only died for some people and not others.
     
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    "this phrase, "all the world", or "the whole world", in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luke 2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1 John 5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, 1 John 2:1; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for John 17:9, and consequently is not a propitiation for them. Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case.

    - from John Gill's Bible commentary on 1 John 2:2
     
  15. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    I already referred to the doctrine of election by
    So does 1 John apply to us or only John's audience. Is he changing the use of the personal pronoun?
     
  16. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it does. Christ said so Himself.

    John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

    John 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

    If you have any doubt about who the "sheep" are, they are those who are saved. Christ died for His sheep, those who are saved, not lost.

    John 10:27-28 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
     
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  17. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    It doesn't say that He didn't die for others as well. It says that He did in other verses.
     
  18. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    John's words apply to the Christians to whom he wrote; therefore, to all Christians. All those whose sins were imputed to Christ, Christ having accomplished a perfect righteousness and complete payment for their sin debt, and Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to them, and whom the Holy Spirit has made alive and look to Christ alone as The Lord our Righteousness are those for whom Christ died.
     
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  19. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    Then why does He say, "not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world".
     
  20. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    If I said I cooked a steak on the grill, would you say "You didn't say you didn't cook a chicken breast on the grill", now would you? It would be foolish to say such a thing.

    There is no verse in the Bible that says that anyone for whom Christ paid their sin debt will end up in hell. That is a false doctrine. Anyone who believes such a false doctrine, such a lie as that is in serious, serious trouble spiritually.
     
    #20 KenH, Nov 11, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2022
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