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The Waldensian Confession of 1120

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by rlvaughn, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    While searching for biographical information on Jean Paul Perrin, author of Luther's Forerunners: or, A cloud of Witnesses, deposing for the Protestant Faith, gathered together in the Historie of the Waldenses, et al., I found a Baptist Board thread titled The 1120 Waldensian Confession, wasn't, by member CarpentersApprentice. [I didn't want to revive a "zombie thread" so I'm starting a new thread here.] In the thread CA said that the 1120 confession actually haled from the 1500s.

    The 1120 Confession can be found on the web in several places, often from the truncated version given by William Jones. Covenant Baptist Church gives a version that is supposed to be from Samuel Morland. The Confession is also linked here from History of the Ancient Christians Inhabiting the Valleys of the Alps.

    CarpentersApprentice's assertion seems reasonable, but my question is whether this is the only explanation. For example, might either the author or the translator (Perrin's works were originally written in French, and, I think, first translated into Dutch) have changed the terminology to something with which they were more familiar? Or some other explanation? Or did Perrin "practice to deceive" (or was himself deceived)?
     
  2. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    I could go with a later editor or translator updating the references. I have to make the shift when I edit a translation from a text using the Russian Synodical Version. The RSV Pslams numbers jump around and it transposes a big chunk of Romans.
     
  3. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Oh please. One can go straight to the pages of Codex Theodulphianus and see First and Second Samuel designated as such:

    (page where First Samuel ends, Second Samuel begins)

    rough transcription from what I remember of Latin paleography, lots of abbreviation:

    Expl- lib- prim- samuhel-
    Inc-p-t lib- sec-d-s samuhelis

    [​IMG]
     
    #3 Jerome, Mar 6, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  4. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    When I could have taken Latin in High School, I took French instead (what was is thinking?). But I would surmise that these abbreviations mean "end book first Samuel" and "begin book second Samuel".

    If this list at Wikipedia can be trusted, Codex Theodulphianus, Codex Toletanus and Codex Complutensis (about the same age) are the oldest Vulgates with the Old Testament, and possibly 200 years older than the Waldensian Confession. So that negates the Apprentice's argument that these books were never called 1 and 2 Samuel before the 1500s.

    Thanks.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    So far I haven't found much on Jean Paul Perrin in sources I have access to, but apparently he was no slouch. According to Daniel Walther in Were the Albigenses and Waldenses Forerunners of the Reformation, Perrin was pastor of the church at Nyons in France, and was first commissioned to write on the Albigenses:
    The task apparently included oversight and collaboration of others inspecting various documents that were available.
    [I think Walther was an Adventist, but the article appears well researched, and parts I was looking at agree with other info I found.]
     
  6. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Thanks for opening this can of worms, Robert.:eek:

    The original technical exceptions aside, there are some practical difficulties with Perrin's work. The confession was supposedly dated 1120. Did Perrin see the document? Probably not, but accepted it from a secondary source. But if he saw it, could he actually read it? That would be like a Jacobean reading not Chaucer but Old English.

    It is also important to understand the mileu. Morland, who perpetuated the idea of the Waldensians as being proto-Protestants, was sent on his mission by Oliver Cromwell, who was eager to support the Waldensians as Protestants to counter the Catholic king of France. No doubt Morland was able to find support of Reformed beliefs because many of the Waldensians adopted Reformed doctrines in the mid-16th century to make common cause against Catholic rulers who had made their lives miserable.

    The 1120 confession has been repeated innumerable times on the internet, in large part by Baptists, but it is hard to find any modern scholar who thinks it is genuine.
     
  7. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    You can count on me! :D
    Not arguing with your point, but I'd be interested in being pointed to some specifically so I can read some of the points of those modern scholars. I found one online yesterday, but he was a Catholic who was very invested in proving there was little to no valid dissent to their "true" church, and that the Waldenses circa 1100-1200 were (I suppose) just rogue Catholics.
     
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