You will never get a straight answer. You will get a series of questions meant to divert the topic and lead you down a path of their choosing. Or you might get the ultimate Calvinist refuge of tough questions: "It's a mystery."
I've learned long ago that these discussions are futile because there is no logical consistency to Calvinism, er, the Doctrines of Grace. That's why I rarely participate.
Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.
The Will of God in the Fall of Man
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by rigz, Apr 22, 2016.
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InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The more rational among them avoid this and such other threads as plague. -
A problem exists when attempting to place Eden and the experience, thought life, and spirituality in line with what human kind display following the fall.
One must understand that the first Adam was in total fellowship with God and could, as no one has since, face God and visit as good friends. What has terrified humankind since the fall, as experienced by the Israeli at the mountain (beginning with Ex. 19), Mosses at the bush (Ex. 3), Isaiah's commission (Isaiah 6), and even Mary's admission ("who am I...") Adam did not experience prior to the fall. One might make a substantial argument that Cain and Abel were like Adam in regard to being able to interact with God, but the account isn't quite as clear as to the level of fellowship rather that God's interaction was over worship experience.
Therefore, the question of God creating "evil" cannot be resolved by looking at Eden.
Rather, one must ask was "evil" a creation or a manifestation?
The Scriptures clearly teach that God created all things (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16). That includes that enemy of believers.
However, one must not confuse creation and eternal perfection. When God created, He also organized, and established authorities. For example: In the animal kingdom, the authority of the "pack" is the alpha, the authority of the herd is the leader... Each authority gains that authority and demonstrates that authority by expressing skill and strength.
Evil was not created but was manifested when excess of dominance was desired. The alpha male in the animal kingdom may murder because of excess of dominance.
The same when that enemy of believers was disclosed with evil. Had evil not come to the garden, there would have been no fall.
Did God ordain, decree, will... for the fall to occur?
He didn't have too. He knew what would occur. He knew and therefore before the creation of this earth, Christ died. He provided redemption before the fall, just as He provided love before we knew how to respond in love.
God does not react to events. Example: Pharaoh was already hard heart, God just confirmed the hard heart into obstinacy.
Ok, just some random thoughts about some of the responses I recall on this thread.
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May I suggest that "calvinism" and the "doctrines of Grace" are far better at giving answers than what is offered by many who oppose the two views.
However, if one suggests that all answers or better all correct answers are found even in the Scriptures, they are highly mistaken.
Answers in both those systems and even in the Scriptures are given consistent with what is being communicated. What is not communicated is not answered.
Btw, "Calvinism" isn't always what John Calvin taught or said any more than Joseph Arminus would agree with some of the views taught in his name, today. Some things, certainly, but other things, not. -
Is it possible that the Will of God evolved radically following the fall?:):)
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Should we quote Calvin and you find the quote 'unCalvinist' please say so and state what Calvinism represents on that point -
That is not really that difficult, unless there is an ulterior motive for asking the question.
The problem seems to be in the rather inconcise statements of definition and explanation.
The decretive will of God is His eternal, unchangeable, holy, wise, and sovereign purpose, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be in their causes, conditions, successions, and relations, and determining their certain futurition.
The permissive will of God is, simply put, that which God allows that it not part of His eternal decree.
Because God is sovereign, nothing happens that is outside His will. But there is a difference between what He causes (decretive) and what He allows (permissive).
And anyone who cannot, or will not, understand that probably has an agenda and is very likely guilty of trolling. :)
So, with that said, this thread has become unfruitful and will be closed sometime after 3PM CDT. -
Scriptures tells us the way of the transgressor is HARD- Proverbs 13:15
But certainly not harder than avoiding charging God with authorship of sin/evil while at the same time trashing Freewill -
God did not decretively will the fall. He allowed it. But due to His eternal, unchangeable, holy, wise, and sovereign purpose, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be in their causes, conditions, successions, and relations, and determining their certain futurition, He was prepared for the fall and had set certain conditions, successions, and events in motion to bring about His own honor and glory in the sight of His creation. QED -
Before any event or activity is carried out, it must have been thought out, can we say that the thought and intents leading to 'permissive will' events are totally INDEPENDENT of God?
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Adam certainly was a free moral agent, because God allowed him to be. Adam was given the ability to make choices within his moral nature, and, because his moral nature was innocence, he could have chosen to obey, but chose his wife over his God.
Today, as all are by nature fallen, we can only make choices within the confines of our moral nature and thus the lost man can only sin. To the point that even "the plowing of the wicked, is sin." Proverbs 21:4. And "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." Isaial 64:6.
It is only after we are converted to Christ, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God that we are able to obey, receive the things of God, and follow Him. 1 Corinthians 2:14 cf Ephesians 2:10.
Before conversion our will was in bondage to the law of sin and death.
After conversion our will is in bondage to the law of new life in Christ.
The latter is better. :) -
1. God never willed the Fall
2. God allowed the Fall
3. God prepared for the Fall
Conclusion:
God never authored the thoughts and intents that precipitated the Fall
Question
Would you therefore agree with me that God does not irresistibly and immutably author every thought and intent of man? -
Look, it is obvious you are mad at all those who you identify as "Calvinist" so you are trying very hard to manufacture a contradiction that exists only in your own mind. And when it is explained to you there is no contradiction, you refuse to see it because you are so emotionally attached to your anger at "Calvinists" that you cannot admit even for a single second, that they may have a point.
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You have an interesting definition of Freewill. Never heard of it.
Freewill is simply ability to make INDEPENDENT decisions. -
When God tells Moses 'thou shalt not commit adultery', Is He telling him that he may commit adultery or he must not commit adultery?
The contradiction is because God commands Adam against eating while He really wants Adam to eat. That's what the young man is wondering;)
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I will extend the deadline (I already have) to give you time to respond. :) -
Just because God knew, and had prepared for it, did not mean it was in God's perfect, decretive will for Adam to eat.
I know the sun will rise tomorrow, but I did not cause it to do so. :)
I know it will rain tonight, and I am prepared for it, but I did not cause it to rain. :) -
Meanwhile, somebody is persuaded God DESIGNED the Fall, but He is not responsible for it
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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