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Featured The word wine does not mean alcoholic always.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jordan Kurecki, Jan 28, 2017.

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  1. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    Many lexicons and dictionaries will say that the word wine in english and oinos in greek. means alcohol. However..Did you know..? in 1869 Thomas Welch a Methodist lay preacher invented a juice pasteurization process to keep juice from fermenting. He sold it as "Dr. Welchs unfermented Wine", also ancient writers Pliny, Plutarch, Horace (Ancient Greek and Roman writers) used the word wine and said that the best wine was "harmless and innocent" and "unadulterated". I think Aristotle even used the word wine to refer to grape juice, also in the Bible in Isaiah 16:10 and a few others places the word wine is used in reference to grape juice.

    Also just now making this thread I found this from
    http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2008/04-10b.html :

    "It is important to note that the Hebrew word tirosh, "grape juice, unfermented wine," appearing 38 times in the Old Testament (Harris, "tirosh," Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, 2:969), is almost exclusively translated by oinos (36 times). In other words, oinos can and does refer to either unfermented or fermented wine in the Septuagint."

    I think it's obvious that the word wine can either mean alcoholic or non alcoholic fruit of the vine. This would explain why in some passages in the word of God it seems that wine is spoken of in a good light, that it "cheers the heart of man", and why other passages say not even to look at wine when it is red, and that wine is a mocker.
     
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    However, we clearly see in Scripture that there are times that alcoholic wine is spoken of in good light as well.
     
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  3. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    What about Mike's Hard Lemonade?

    ;)
     
  4. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Dr. Welch doesn't get to decide what the word wine means. Meaning comes from common usage.

    If you offer a teetotaler a glass of wine, I imagine they would recoil in horror, regardless of whether the glass contained normal wine or Dr. Welch's unfermented win.
     
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  5. beameup

    beameup Member

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    "new wine" is alcoholic and bubbly due to carbon dioxide still being released.
    Then it is aged in "wine skins" or containers and loses CO2.
    Since the wine yeast is naturally on the grape skin,
    fermentation is "automatic" once the grapes are crushed.
    This process of natural fermentation begins immediately.
    "New" or "Old", it is all alcoholic.
     
  6. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how unfermented grape juice "cheers the heart of man."
     
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  7. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    It certainly never did anything for me!

    The real stuff was much more effective.
     
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The wine that Jesus made. The "it was grape juice" argument is an argument without any merit.

    The Greek word translated "wine" is (οινος, οινουo, οινω) oinos, which was the common Greek word for normal wine, wine that was fermented/alcoholic.

    The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is the same word for the wine the wedding feast ran out of.

    The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is also the same word that is used in Ephesians 5:18, "...do not get drunk on wine..." Obviously, getting drunk from drinking wine requires the presence of alcohol.

    Everything, from the context of a wedding feast, to the usage of oinos in 1st century Greek literature (in the New Testament and outside the New Testament), argues for the wine that Jesus created to be normal, ordinary wine, containing alcohol.

    There is simply no solid historical, cultural, exegetical, contextual, or lexical reason to understand it to have been grape juice.

    There are thirteen original Hebrew and Greek words for "wine" in our English Bible. How can we know which one means fermented wine? To find the answer, do not go to Aristotle or Pliny, but go to the Bible itself. By comparing its usage, the scriptural meaning of wine can be defined.

    One of the original Hebrew words for wine is "yayin." This word is first used in Genesis 9:21 where Noah "drank of the wine and was drunken." This wine caused drunkenness! Was it just grape juice? Uh, no!

    In Genesis 14:18 we read of Melchizedek – a type of Jesus Christ, or possibly even a Christophany – who "brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God." God Himself, in the person of Melchizedek, gave wine to Abraham. And again, the original Hebrew word was "yayin" which always means fermented wine. This same Hebrew word is used in Amos 9:14 speaking of the coming Millennium where the people will "plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof." They will drink the same kind of wine that Noah drank and became drunk by overindulgence.

    In the New Testament, one original Greek word for wine is oinos. Proof that it is alcoholic is given in the story of the good Samaritan. The Samaritan poured oil and wine on the man’s wounds (Luke 10:34), showing that the wine had enough alcoholic content to be used as an antiseptic. Would you pour grape juice on a wound? Only if you wanted a massive infection.

    The Greek word oinos is also used in John 2 where Jesus turned water into wine by a divine miracle. It is used in 1 Timothy 5:23, the command of Paul, "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities." This Greek word is also used in Ephesians 5:18, "And be not drunk with wine wherein is excess."

    If God wanted to say "grape juice" He would have done so, just as He did in Acts 2:13 "Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine."

    The words "new wine" are translated from the Greek word γλευκους (gleukos).

    God is not an idiot. Had He wanted to say "grape juice" he would have said "grape juice" (γλευκους), but He didn't. He said (οινος) fermented, alcoholic wine, just like Paul cautioned about in Ephesians 5:18, "And be not drunk with wine . . . " (οινω).
     
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  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Take Welch's grape juice for thy stomach's sake and often infirmities...
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    How about the sugar content....what it really does is gives you diabetes.:)
     
  11. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    Wow. So much of this is just simple assumption, there are biblical examples where the word yayin refers to grape juice, you stating that it is always fermented is just simply not true. So yes we can go to the bible itself to prove that words in the bible translated wine do not always mean alcohol.

    you mentioned that gleukos means grape juice... so are you leading us to believe that they thought the apostles were full of grape juice? ironic because Strong even give a definition for gleukos that says "but used of the more saccharine (and therefore highly inebriating) fermented wine...

    Even gleukos can obviously mean alcohol from the very verse you posted, why is it so hard for you to admit that the word oinos might also have the option of being fermented or unfermented.

    Just because you post examples in the NT and the O.T. where Yayin and Oinos is used to refer to alcoholic drink, that does not prove that every time those words are used that they are alcoholic. There are passages that use the word Yayin that are obviously not alcoholic, and the word oinos in the seputagint is used to translate yayin.

    As to others talking about how wine cheers the heart of man, I can tell you something I went to wallmart a while ago and bought some 100 percent juice from welches, and it was the 100 percent stuff, not the syrup concentrate with added water, and I tell you it cheered my heart because the quality of the juice was way better, it ruined the normal welch's juice for me.

    There are just so many assumptions made about these words and really all you are doing is building a strawman and beating it down, I do not claim that yayin or oinos only means unfermented juice, so you can post examples where those words are alcohol and all you are doing is beating down your own strawman that you have set up.

    How about showing us in Isaiah 16:10:
    10 And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses; I have made their vintage shouting to cease.

    Are we to believe that alcoholic wine is what comes straight out of the press?

    or how about here?

    Nehemiah 13:15 In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals.

    1 Chronicles 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Brother, you are simply wrong! The press was called the "wine' press because that was the intent of the press and where the process of fermentation actually began. Patton's book has caused so much confusion on this issue as it is nothing but abused quotations and unfounded assertions. Read A.M. Wilson's book on this subject:

    http://victorybaptistchurch.webstarts.com/uploads/THE_WINES_book1.pdf
     
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  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Nope.

    Yep.

    Well, there's your problem. Relying on Strong's.

    Nope.

    Because it can't.

    Nope.

    That is the intent of the wine press. Can you say "synecdoche?"
     
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  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    IMO, this thread is really all about whether Christians can or should drink alcohol.

    Probably another direction from which to look at this is:

    Matthew 15
    17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
    18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

    Of course what goes into the "belly" can be overdone and we suffer the consequence so we are instructed from the scripture not to overindulge on oinos but to be filled with the Spirit.

    The real problem with an over indulgence of anything is - Why? Why do any of us who have the indwelling Holy Spirit need to drown our sorrows or "get high"?

    Another problem area is that we understand our liberty.
    If an individual (saved or not) is an alcoholic or former alcoholic we shouldn't flaunt our liberty if they visit us in our home.

    My own conviction is that alcohol is allowable for Christians, drunkenness is not.
    But I have on occasion agreed (or I made the decision on my own) to practice teetotalism in college and/or local churches so as to not cause offense.

    HankD
     
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  15. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Jordan the Bible does not support your rigid and legalistic views. Your KJV only ism, your anti alcohol views and the like. Paul encouraged Timothy to take a little wine for the sake of his stomach, Jesus turned water into wine, Isa 55 speaks positively of wine and there are so many more passages in the Bible that speak positively of wine. You will never see them because you are blinded to your legalistic brand of fundamentalism.
     
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I hate it! I absolutely hate it! When I have to agree with evangelist6589!
     
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  17. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Gospel Coalition councilmember Albert Mohler preaching on alcohol, addresses the faulty assumptions, immaturity, etc. of booze boosters:

    http://www.sbts.edu/MP3/Mohler/Alcohol&Ministry.mp3
     
  18. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Just pour yourself a glass of wine, it'll take the edge off. :D
     
  19. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    I bet Kenneth Gentry is smarter than Mohler on this issue and he wrote a book called God Gave Wine
     
  20. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    You know, the big smiley indicate a jest. :Wink

    :Biggrin
     
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