Good points, LeBuick, but we are limited to the confines of what God has given us, which is words, spoken and written. We know God spoke directly, with an audible voice, at times to people, and wrote the decalogue on stone Himself, but we don't know what other methods He mighta used in communicating to others. Those whom He caused to write His Scriptures were also limited to words, the words of their own language, to express, as best they could, the messages God gave them.
The Words vs. the Message
Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by AVBunyan, Nov 6, 2006.
Page 2 of 3
-
-
-
If gold was common, it'd be the ideal building material. It's the most malleable metal known, it does not rust or tarnish, it's a super insulator, is completely non-toxic, easy on the eyes, so heavy that it could resist any storm, and is one of the best conductors of electricity known. I dunno about the properties of the gemstones mentioned in Scripture, but I suspect they would also make building materials far superior to what we now use.
I also suspect a pure, perfectly-burnished gold floor could appear transparent. Also, what's to keep God from making structures from some substance now unknown to us that appeared to John to be gold?
On Patmos, John wasn't really in prison...he was in exile. It is arable enough, with enough potable water to have sustained a population of about 3000. In John's time, it had many date palm groves. -
-
A.F. -
Just telling someone, “Jesus can save you.” may have little effect on that person for it is not God’s words though it may cause him to think.. Now if one were to say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” or “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” or, “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” – now you have power.
I “paraphrase” all the time with a message but I do not put confidence in the message but the word and words of God - Heb. 4:12. Iii seek to always include the verse or verses.
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? Didn’t use the word message.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Folks – go deliver the message but make sure you include the word of God or his words.
I’m just crazy enough to believe that the word of God has real power not my words.
His word does the work:
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
BTW – I believe the above refers to the written words of God – some of you here want to confine it to just the living word to often.
Brethren – give the message but don’t try to convince me from scripture that God’s very words take second fiddle to the message. If your message does not include God’s very words then beef up your message and give it some power.
Psa 138:2 …for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
The message is Christ (Col. 1:18) – this message gets power when it is made up of God’s very words. Do you have them?
God bless -
Tell that to the Ethiopian eunuch whose story is told in Acts 8:26-40. The eunuch was not understanding the words at all, but when Philip shared with him the message, he understood and he was saved and baptized. Now which was more important to the eunuch? He had the words right in front of him, and in a language that he understood, yet he did not understand. Yet when the message was presented to him, he understood and it led to his salvation. The specific words are not as important as the message. If the words were more important, then the Ethiopian eunuch would be in torment today, because he didn't understand the words. The message is what got the job done, and it is the message that gets the job done today - not the specific words. Some of you place far too much importance on the specific words, while it is the message that is truly of the most importance.
-
God bless -
First...Ps. 138:2 in the KJV is a poor translation. It shoulda read "along with all your name". It's evident from other Scriptures that God's name is paramount.
Second...We don't use God's words...we use ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS of them. And one correct translation doesn't out-rank another correct translation in more modern language. -
-
-
The trees or important forest: which is the more?
I'm sure the above important words held almost no meaning for most readers.
Lets try the same words again--
Which is more important: the trees or the forest?
Words are important because they are the building blocks of the message. The trees are important because they form the forest. But words must be subservient to the message or they have no meaning. The message is greater than the individual words that construct it: Gestalt! (the idea or phenomenon that elements become so unified as a whole that its properties cannot be derived from a simple summation of its parts).
Its like a marriage. Who is greater in a marriage: husband or wife? Neither. Equality; even though scripturally the wife is submissive to the husband. A marriage should be greater than the sum of two individual lives. -
If a person is multilingual, which understandable Bible version is that individual's final authority? Stated another way: assuming the message understood by the multilingual person is exactly the equivalent, which set of words should be esteemed better than the others?
-
"For is the kingdom of God to become words or syllables?
Why should we be in bondage to them if we may be free,
use one precisely when we may use another
no less fit, as commodiously?" (AV translators, "To The Reader") -
So, do we agree that each valid English Bible version was written in the words appropriate for the era in which it was written? And, given the multiplicity of valid meanings in English for many Hebrew & Greek words/phrases, that we can expect several versions to have been made in each era?
-
AVBunyan said...
Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
HankD -
Right...and nowhere is any one language nor any one version within any one language specified.
-
There are no jots and tittles in English but there are in Aramaic and Hebrew, so no English version (of the Torah) can be that language He meant.
Also in Romans 3 Paul said that unto the Jews (Hebrew, Aramaic speakers) were commited the oracles of God.
This would at least exclude English as one of the languages of inspiration.
HankD -
That seems more Christlike to me.
Page 2 of 3