This Guy: Mark Keith Robinson

You must show from scripture Jesus telling you to do what you are doing, before you can say you follow him in these matters. I have ample scripture supporting what I say. But I have yet to hear any scripture support for you and others who advocate violence.

 

Naa, you have made incorrect claims of scripture, you have engaged in eisegesis, and you have divorced the passages you are trying to use to support your presupposition from their contexts. On this forum you are going to have to do better than that.

 

No one advocates violence. That statement is a characterization which is pejorative in nature. What we advocate is self defense.

 

Apparently you do not understand what that means.

 

But, Christians in the NT never used violence to defend themselves. Many died rather than doing so.

 

As an 8th degree black belt, I know many ways of stopping an intruder without killing him or her. I won't take time to delineate those ways here.

The problem is that you seem to be opposing all violence against all evil people by anyone other than the police. If that is what you are saying, then you must be against Christ Himself, who twice violently ejected evil men from the temple with a homemade weapon. This is called the "cleansing of the temple." Surely you know about these passages and must admit that Christ then used violence against evil men.

 

“Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:19–21) (KJV 1900)

 

Since you continue to misrepresent others position I am out. Good luck with your eisegesis.

 

I will repeat what I said, you apparently do not understand what this means.

 

Jesus was fulfilling scripture when he drove the cattle and merchants from the temple. But he did not harm anyone. I'm only saying we have no examples of Christians using violence to defend themselves instead of turning the other cheek.

 

If you had scripture to support your views, you would have used it by now and the discussion would have ended a long time ago.

 

"Vengeance" is defined in the Cambridge online dictionary as "action against someone to punish that person for having hurt you," (vengeance Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary)

On the other hand, in the same source, "self defence" is defined as:
"protection of yourself, either by fighting or discussion:"
He used the gun in self-defence.
In self-defence, I have to say that I only did what you asked me to do.
skill of fighting without weapons to protect yourself."

The meaning you are giving "vengeance" is mistaken. In self defence, I am stopping someone from hurting me, not getting back at someone for hurting me.

 

How else can you take it?

 

He did use violence, did He not? And how do you know He did not harm anyone. The text does not say.

So if Jesus used violence to eject wicked men from the Father's house (and thus His own house), how is it wrong if I use violence to stop someone from acting wickedly in my own house? Simply the fact that He was fulfilling Scripture does not mean that I cannot imitate Him in this matter.

 

If you want to drive the money changers out of quite a few churches, that would be great.

 

There are two theological reasons for self defense that have not yet been mentioned on this thread.

1. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. To allow an evil person to violate a saved person in my family (a wife or daughter), or commit violence against my own person, is allowing someone to defile the holy temple of God.
2. We are all made in the image of God. What is wrong with murder is that it is violating the image of God in the person of a human being (Gen. 9:6). That is definitely something that should be stopped if it is in my power to do so.

 

1. You have avoided my point, which is that Christ used violence, which you oppose.
2. A modern church house (which is not a Biblical church) is not analogous to the Jewish temple. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, and are thus worth defending as Jesus defended the temple of God with violence.