THose Who Haven't Heard

[Michael Wrenn]

I'll probably regret this, but here goes:

It has been stated on this board that billions who never heard or will hear of Christ will spend eternity in hell, including many of those vile sinners, newborn infants. Primitive Baptists and others have been called heretics for believing that God may make provison for these people.

Just think of what this is saying: that for a life span of a mere 70 years, or much less, all those who never heard the gospel are automatically sentenced by God to spend an ETERNITY in hell.

If this is your idea of a merciful and just God, I think it is a warped definition of those two attributes.

As for the little children, this just doesn't square with Jesus's words to" Permit the children to come to me and forbid them not, for such is the kingdom of heaven."

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Ignoring for right now the question of children (I personally think that you have raised two separate issues), how do you think that someone can get to heaven apart from faith in the shed blood of Christ?

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

AND...if what you are saying is correct, then the best approach to evangelism would be to keep the gospel a secret so that NOBODY hears!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

From my reading of Romans Ch.2, my belief in the Light of Christ, my interpretation of John 1:9 and Titus 2:11, and my belief in the infinite mercy and justice of God, I believe that people who haven't heard the gospel will be judged based on the use they make of the Light they have.

I would hope we could have a discussion on this issue without charges of heresy being made and condemnations to hell being issued. Of course I'm not charging you with that, just preparing for what I hope doesn't come.

I am prepared to discuss the issue with civility and Christian charity; I just want to let everyone know that up front, so that if the personal attacks and insults come, let it be known clearly that I did not initiate same.

 

[John Wells]

God does make provision for the "innocents" (little children). As to the other accusation, I would have to see more of how the actual debate was worded. But if I made a list of all the crazy beliefs I've seen here, your two would pale in comparison. The point is not what someone says, but what does the Word of God say, and that's what we're all about trying to discern here.

If I made a statement and 4/5ths of the responses were critical of that statement, backing it up with scriptural references, I can tell you I'd seriously study and pray about why I believe what I said.

That's happened time after time with you Michael and all you do is get mad at us. Several people have asked you why you are so mad in most of your posts. I hope and pray that you and I can come to exchange ideas in a civil manner some day. God bless you Michael.

 

[Rockfort]

You seem to be saying little children are acceptable to the Lord, and therefore if they die young without believing-- perhaps without hearing-- the gospel, they will not be damned.

Alright-- so if a woman has an abortion or a couple commits infanticide against their own child, then are they guaranteeing that child will never go to perdition?-- whereas, parents who raise a child to adolescence or adulthood are taking a chance their child will suffer eternal damnation? If this is so, and since one's eteranl condition is infinitely more important than in the present world, then killing children is very logical.

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rockfort:
If this is so, and since one's eteranl condition is infinitely more important than in the present world, then killing children is very logical.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Logical perhaps, but a dreadfully serious transgression of God's law. And, logical only under your position that a baby is accountable.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Wow, you guys arwe weird!

Just kidding, but...

Jim,

How did you deduce that from what I said??

Rockfort,

I think that is convoluted logic.

John,

Thanks for that; I mean that seriously and sincerely. Maybe that's a start. God bless you, too. I'm more than willing to meet you half way (as the saying goes)--and unarmed.

 

[John Wells]

Mark 10:13-14 (ESV)
13 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

Most, if not all, of these children would have been too young to exercise personal faith. Jesus’ words imply that God graciously extends salvation to those too young or too mentally impaired to exercise faith. - MacArthur, J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (Electronic ed.) (Mk 10:14). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

John,

Yes; I agree. But it has been stated here that there will be infants in hell. I think that's an awful belief and one that is insulting to God.

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Michael, I too agree with John's position on salvation of children. I would like to point out, though, that our perspective on what would and would not "make" a holy God is not a reliable measure. As humans we can only glimpse the holiness and righteousness of God and, in fact, He is so holy and so righteous that in His sovereignty he would still be perfectly holy and righteousness if he chose NOT to sacrifice His son and sent us ALL to hell for our sinfulness, children included.

Praise His Holy Name that He made a way out, the sacrifice of His only Son on the cross for us.

 

[Dr. Bob]

You really believe that people will go to heaven having never repented of sin and believed on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ?

I find that abhorrent. Such "universalism" flies in the face of the idea of a small group that will be saved (narrow is the way that leads to life everlasting, few go in - I believe JESUS said that).

God has given only one way to heaven. Through Jesus Christ and His shed blood. WHY did Jesus have to die if man can go to heaven without faith in Him? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Mark 16:16 - He that believeth not shall be damned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>John 3:36 and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And we could go on and on and on

 

[Rockfort]

&lt; I think that is convoluted logic. &gt;

Would you care to explain?
You would not leave matches or strikers within reach of a child because you want to take away the possibillity of that child burning himself or anything else. So if a young child is guaranteed to not go to hell, by killing him you are taking away the possibility of his being eternally damned. I don't know your position on gambling, but according to scripture "only a few" find The Way; so raising a child to adulthood is not a good gamble as far as avoiding hell-- IF there is no possibility of going there if one dies while still a child. And that IS your contention, isn't it? ['Calvinism' would negate this whole dilemma, but I know you are against that.]

 

[John Wells]

Dr. Bob,

I agree with you on all who have maturity and are not mentally impaired. Do you believe babies who die go to hell? They certainly could not have confessed Jesus as their savior. They don't even know how to think or say "da-da." Here's another strong indication in addition to Mark 10:13-14 that God has made special provision for "children:"

But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. (2 Sam 12:23 KJV)

This was the seven-day old baby of David and Bathsheba. King David anticipated that one day he would "go to him," i.e. join him in heaven!

Regarding all others who have the mental capacity to accept or reject God's provision for salvation (Jesus Christ), I believe the Bible teaches (and Jesus said) "no one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6. This of course applies to all who have lived after the cross.

Someone has raised the question, "what about people all over the world that have never heard the name of Jesus? If we accept the 30 or so verses of scripture that clearly proclaim the doctrine of election/predestination, we must conclude that God's elect WILL hear about Jesus, somehow, some way. Those who die never hearing of Jesus were "vessels" destined to "wrath." I admit that it is impossible for our finite minds to comprehend the perfect righteousness of God in this, but think and pray long and hard about this passage:

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (Rom 9:21-23 KJV)

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- (Rom 9:21-23 NIV)

Election scriptures:
Of Christ, as Messiah. Is 42:1; 1 Pet 2:6.
Of good angels. 1 Tim 5:21.
Of Israel. Deut 7:6; Is 45:5.
Of ministers. Luke 6:13; Acts 9:15.
Of churches. 1 Pet 5:13.
Of saints, is
Of God. 1 Thess 1:4; Titus 1:1.
By Christ. John 13:18; 15:16.
In Christ. Eph 1:4.
Personal. Matt 20:16; John 6:44; Acts 22:14; 2 John 13.
According to the purpose of God. Rom 9:11; Eph 1:11.
According to the foreknowledge of God. Rom 8:29; 1 Pet 1:2.
Eternal. Eph 1:4.
Sovereign. Rom 9:15,16; 1 Cor 1:27; Eph 1:11.
Irrespective of merit. Rom 9:11.
Of grace. Rom 11:5.
Recorded in heaven. Luke 10:20.
For the glory of God. Eph 1:6.
Through faith. 2 Thess 2:13.
Through sanctification of the Spirit. 1 Pet 1:2.
To adoption. Eph 1:5.
To salvation. 2 Thess 2:13.
To conformity with Christ. Rom 8:29.
To good works. Eph 2:10.
To spiritual warfare. 2 Tim 2:4.
To eternal glory. Rom 9:23.
Ensures to saints
Effectual calling. Rom 8:30.
Divine teaching. John 17:6.
Belief in Christ. Acts 13:48.
Acceptance with God. Rom 11:7.
Protection. Mark 13:20.
Vindication of their wrongs. Luke 18:7.
Working of all things for good. Rom 8:28.
Blessedness. Ps 33:12; 65:4.
The inheritance. Is 65:9; 1 Pet 1:4,5.
Should lead to cultivation of graces. Col 3:12.
Should be evidenced by diligence. 2 Pet 1:10.
Saints may have assurance of. 1 Thess 1:4.
Exemplified
Isaac. Gen 21:12.
Abram. Neh 9:7.
Zerubbabel. Hag 2:23.
Apostles. John 13:18; 15:19.
Jacob. Rom 9:12,13.
Rufus. Rom 16:13.
Paul. Gal 1:15.

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

[Chris Temple]

There are only two groups of creatures: men and angels elect of God, and men and angels not elect. That's it folks! All those whom God has chosen from before the foundation of the world, WILL be saved.

The London Confession of Baptist Faith, Chapter X: Of Effectual Calling

I. Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;[2] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;[3] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh:[4] renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;[5] yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[6]

1. Rom. 8:30; 11:7; Eph. 1:10-11, II Thess. 2:13-14
2. Eph. 2:1-6
3. Acts 26:18; Eph. 1:17-18
4. Ezek.36:26
5. Deut. 30:6; Ezek.36:27; Eph. 1:19
6. Psa. 110:3; Song of Sol. 1:4

II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all forseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature,[7] being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;[8] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.[9]

7. II Tim. 1:9; Eph. 2:8
8. I Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:5; John 5:25
9. Eph. 1:19-20

III. Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit;[10] who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth;[11] so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

10. John 3:3, 5-6
11. John 3:8

IV. Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[12] yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[13] much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.[14]

12. Matt. 22:14; 13:20-21; Heb. 6:4-5
13. John 6:44-45, 65; I John 2:24-25
14. Acts 4:12; John 4:22; 17:3

 

[John Wells]

The logical question for those struggling with the doctrine of election is: "Why should we witness and share the gospel then?"

Besides being commanded to in the Great Commission, we who have been saved become an agent of God's election process. He uses us in the divine appointment process to not only share the gospel with those whom God has chosen, but also with many who are not chosen. Those who reject our message further validate God's sovereignty and righteousness.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. (Rom 9:15-16 KJV)

This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." (John 12:38-40 NIV)

Just as the two men on the road to Emmaus could not recognize Jesus until he removed the veil from their eyes, so also no one can see Jesus today for the same reason, per John 12:38-40.

We are still to spread the gospel to as many people as we can and leave the “unveiling” to the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of election holds no detraction to evangelism!

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

[Dr. Bob]

John - If one holds to the position that men who never hear the Gospel will somehow be saved (even without believing on Jesus) and that only those who have rejected the Gospel will be excluded, then let's can missions all together.

How much better to leave them alone in their ignorance and false religion and let God take them all to heaven. Sounds like the crowd Wm Carey was working with when he tried to persuade the English to support foreign missions. (Yes, I know they were hyper-calvinists, not universalists)

I personally witness and support missions for two reasons - my love for God and desire to be obedient to His Word, and my love for others and desire to see God's glory in the salvation of their souls.

 

[John Wells]

Dr. Bob,

I don't know where you got your impressions in your first paragraph. Where did I say that "men who never hear the Gospel will somehow be saved?" I said "we must conclude that God's elect WILL hear about Jesus, somehow, some way." Although I didn't elaborate for brevity's sake, this assumes God's elect accepts the message and Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Seems like we're in disagreement about agreeing!

 

[Joey M]

As far as men never hearing the gospel, the Bible says they are without excuse.
As far as infants, I look at what David said when his child died after birth, " 23But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

He knew that his infant son was in heaven.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Hi folks

I think I am the blame for this discussion, I think either Michael didn't understand me properly or I didn't explain the Primitive Baptist position very well. I was trying to point out the unfairness of the Arminian "Offer of savaltion, if you will only accept." We Primitive Baptist don't believe that all who have never heard the gospel will go to heaven and glory. We do believe that it is possible for Jesus to speak directly to the heart of individuals, and we believe the call is effectual, whether or not the person is able to vocalize that experience or not. What we try to be is consistent, for we believe God is consistent, so we believe grace covers everyone, and there is no need to make a special case for infants, mentally deficient individuals or fully competent adults. We Primitive Baptists DO BELIEVE that infants and mentally handicapped persons will be in heaven, we accept the 1689 London Confession, as being a faithful expression of what we believe, as do most Reformed type Baptists. That said, there is a small faction of Primitive Baptists, identical in every other way, who believe that all humans will be in heaven. Don't yell at me, I am not part of that group, and can't and won't defend them.

To Michael, I apologize for this misunderstaning, I never intended to mislead you about what we believe. And for anyone else who might come across this, I have had a stroke in the fairly recent past, and my brain doesn't always express things as well as it should.

If you would care to know why we believe what we do about this, I posted it as best I could under the Continental Baptist thread under Denominational Discussions, with scriptural references as appropriate.

I sincerely regret causing this unpleasantness, it was never my intent to do that.

I will be away for the rest of the weekend, going on a lecture tour, and won't be back till Monday, so, I won't be able to answer further questions from my point of view. Hopefully the thread mentioned and the London Confession will answer any questions about what I and other Primitive Baptists believe about the subject.

In hope.
J.