Sometimes it is hard to understand the posts of others. For example who denies that 1 John 2:2 speaks of propitiation? The verse says Christ is our propitiation. But what does that mean? It means Christ is our means of salvation. If a person is not "in" the propitiatory shelter of Christ, they are children of wrath. If people are transferred into Christ, they enter the propitiatory shelter of Christ, and are no longer children of wrath.
If we are not "in Christ" we are not in a propitious situation, facing the wrath of God. But if we are "in Christ" the situation is propitious, favorable, we are justified and united with God, our sins are forgiven.
I object to folks providing a special definition of a word, when the dictionary meaning works. Christ is the means of our salvation, He is the propitiation not only for us but also for the whole world. Everyone who is transferred into His shelter is saved, and everyone not in Christ is unsaved.
Thoughts on, Propitiation.
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Dec 17, 2014.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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No, Christ is our propitiation. 1 John 2:2. The effort to deny this obvious truth by both Calvinists and non-Calvinists is amazing.
To repeat, Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation. All this effort to read the meanings of English words back into the Greek is nonsense. Not spiritually "in Christ" unsaved, "in Christ" saved. We receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross when God spiritually transfers us into Christ, and not before. God's wrath was not turned away from any sinner, any one who by nature is a child of wrath, until the sinner undergoes the circumcision of Christ. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
What you have done is EMPTY the term "Christ" of propitiation and made him simply an ABSTRACT term void of any significance. -
Perhaps our disagreement is based on the translation we use. I have been using the NASB95 which says of Christ that he himself is the propitiation for our sin. What translation are you referencing?
My observation is that if you want to say Christ is "our salvation," then why limit it to "propitiation"? Also, why the link to "our sins"? My view is that Christ Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only that but for the sins of the whole world (everyone's sin). Why add to or change that? Propitiation points to Christ's death paying adverting the wrath of God. -
No, our disagreement is that you are unwilling (not unable) to accept that Christ is our propitiation. Did I say Christ is only our propitiation and nothing more? Nope. Why find fault where none exists?
To repeat, Christ is our propitiation or means of salvation.
My NASB95 reads, " And He Himself is the propitiation from our sins...." The verse says Christ is our propitiation. But what does that mean? It means Christ is our means of salvation. If a person is not "in" the propitiatory shelter of Christ, they are children of wrath. If people are transferred into Christ, they enter the propitiatory shelter of Christ, and are no longer children of wrath.
The gospel is simple and straightforward. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Any definition of "propitiation" that does not convey the totality of that truth is "another Jesus" and "another gospel." -
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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and his life and death are MEANINGLESS if they don't satisfy God
Is there not something else to the equation?
How do we know that God was satisfied?
Was the resurrection of Jesus from the dead necessary for the washing away of our sins in his own blood? -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Interpret this verse by the preceding 10 verses rather than merely by this text jerked out of context or some peice meal aspect of this verse.
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2) Did I say 1 John 2:2 was talking about our atoning sacrifice? Nope. What did I say. Christ is our propitiation.
3) Is the word translated reconciliation the same Greek word as the one translated "propitiation?" Nope. Propitiation is the means of salvation, reconciliation is the result of salvation.
4) Not sure what Greek word you claim means atoning sacrifice? Oops, now I found it. You switched versions, and are using the NIV or other Calvinistic translation to redefine propitiation as atoning sacrifice. Not what it means.
Folks, 1 John 2:2 says Christ is our propitiation, or means of salvation. If we are not "in Christ" we are not "in the propitiatory shelter of Christ." We are not in a propitious or favorable place. If God transfers us into Christ, then we are in the propitiatory shelter of Christ, a very propitious place. So simple a child could understand it. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Christ is the mercy seat ONLY in the sense of the typology being expressed by the mercy seat on the day of atonement. It is what APPEASES or SATISFIES God's wrath against sin and God's righteous demands. On the day of the atonement is expressed by the typology of the contents under the "mercy seat" and what is placed upon the "mercy seat". It is the "blood" of a lamb without spot or blemish, thus typical of a SINLESS LIFE that is placed UPON the mercy seat on the day of atonement. UNDER the mercy seat is the law of Moses, the manna in a jar and Aaron's rod that budded. Typically, these things also represent Christ as the WHOLE ARK represents Christ as Christ fulfilled the law by HIS LIFE. He gave HIS LIFE as God gave MANNA to sustain the physical life of Israel. His resurrection out of death is typified by the rod that budded. It is this WHOLE PICTURE of the "mercy seat" on the day of atonement that actually SATISFIES God's righteousness and wrath against His people. It is not the "means of salvation" but is that actual obtaining of salvation in the objective sense by the Person and work of Christ which is ALREADY FINISHED and God is already SATISFIED objectively. -
No matter how often Calvinists redefine the meanings of words, the truth of God's message cannot be denied.
Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation. Not in Christ, not saved; in Christ - saved! We go from having wrath stored up against us, to being forgiven.
Do the lexicons indicate propitiation means "atoning sacrifice?" Nope
Strong's and Thayer's - the means of appeasing, a propitiation
I am reminded of the old story of a student taking a theology class. He said he was still confused, but he was confused on a higher level. :)
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