And did they practice this in the NT church? Was this what the Apostle Paul taught?
Darren
Tithe vs offering
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Aug 10, 2009.
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We do not know if:
(a) God had revealed this 'standard' to Abraham specifically, or
(b) if it was what Abraham felt in his heart was an appropriate portion to give.
Either way it sets a standard for us to consider. If it was (a), then there is a divine reason for the tithe apart from the Law as a standard for our giving, and if it was (b), then Abraham, who is the "father of us all" as regards matters of the faith (Romans 4:16,17).
Personally, I think a person who has great gratitude of God's saving grace in their souls would want to give the most he/she can and would not be willing to give "just a tithe".
The story of the widow who gave her two mites (all that she had), teaches a very important principle that many, many Christians fail to see. Namely that God does not measure our giving by the amount we give, but by the amount we hold back for ourselves. -
Darren -
You are right that people should not confuse the two.
You are wrong in how you define them.
If you are thinking of Malachi 3:8, then you have misinterpreted the verse.
The tithes were the annual increase of the crops and livestock of the harvest for landowners in the Promised Land (Deu 12:1-12; 14:22-27), not tithes of everyone's monetary income (Lev 27; Deu 14:24-26). The annual tithes were eaten by the tither in a feast. Only the third-year tithes were wholly given away (Deu 14:28-29). Eventually, these tithes ended up going into storehouse chambers under King Hezekiah (2 Chr 31:4-21).
The offerings were things burned on the altar in the Temple (see Mal 1:6-14; 2:7-13; 3:1-4 for context of 3:8).
The priests robbed God in tithes by stealing the third-year tithes from the Levites who ministered in the Temple (Neh 10:34-39; Neh 13:1-14).
The priests robbed God in offerings by burning blemished things on the altar in the Temple, contrary to the Law (Mal 1:6-14; 2:7-13; 3:1-4).
Please show the Scripture to support your assumption. -
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While every society has had some form of monetary system, often people were paid in non-monetary product. Romans soldiers were paid in salt (an extremely valuable commodity in those days, hence the term, "a man who is worth his salt").
To say that there is no obligation to give a portion of monetary income is nothing short but a disingenious way to rob God and a cover-up for an unwillingness to give to the Lord. What would you suggest? Most people today are not in the agriculture business, and thus would never bring the Lord the firstfruits of the increase (harvest) to the Lord. I hope you are not suggesting that Christians are under no obligation to give to the Lord. Because that would be patently false. We are.
In 1 Cor.16:1,2 Paul commands the church with regards to a matter dealing with the support of God's work.
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
While I readily admit that the text doesn't say so in so many words, I am on a lot firmer ground saying they gave of their monetary income, and not food and livestock!
Exactly how else would a person give to the Lord if they never had a garden, let alone a commercial crop, and didn't raise any livestock?
Money is simply a representation of a man's labour. Whether that labour was for production of food, or as a skilled craftsman, it is God who blesses with any "increase", and a spiritual man would recognize God's claim upon it. -
11 Then Hezekiah commanded to prepare chambers in the house of the LORD; and they prepared them,
12 And brought in the offerings and the tithes and the dedicated things faithfully: over which Cononiah the Levite was ruler, and Shimei his brother was the next.
A person might argue that they sold their produce and then brought the money. What would be the difference between them "working to raise crops and livestock" and then selling them and tithing with that monetary income, and a person who works in a trade or profession today and giving their tithes and offerings out of their monetary income. None whatsoever.
I suggest you read C.H. Spurgeon and A.W. Pink on the subject of tithing if you haven't already. -
"Giving to God" (as in supporting the church with money) and tithing are two completely different subjects in the Bible. One is not a model or method for the other. They are simply two completely different things.
The only times money is mentioned regarding tithing are the following places:
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This passage has nothing to do with tithing. This passage in particular has nothing to do with even supporting one's own church. This passage is about supporting a remote church. Specifically, it is about a particular famine in Judea, and it is one of several accounts of Paul telling certain churches ahead of time to save up so that, when he arrives in his journey, they will already be prepared to give him the aid.
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After the Babylonian captivity, Hezekiah resumes the practice of bringing all the firstfruits and all the third-year tithes into the Temple storehouse chambers:
A landowner had either to tithe of his crops or give instead its value in money plus 20% as a penalty for not tithing in crops. He could not do this with the livestock. You could argue that all non-landowners then simply had to tithe 12% annually in money, but then they would not be "redeeming" anything, now, would they?
You could argue that, in Deu 14, one could simply bring money to Jerusalem, exchange it for food, and eat in the festival. However, you would still need Scripture to prove this as before.
Please find me any tithing passage in the Law other than the two listed where people tithed from money (or "income"). Also, show me any passage that proves that the reason tithes were in crops and livestock was that Israel was an agrarian society. I could then prove with many passages mentioning money that Israel at this time was a completely monetary-driven economy.
The tithes were in crops and livestock so that they would be linked with God's blessing regarding the borders of the Promised Land and that this blessing was solely dependent upon God's sovereign control of the climate (something man can not touch or credit to his own efforts).
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2 Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
I think its clear that the NT church REPLACED tithing and done away with it altogether and introduced freewill offerings. Some want to argue that tithing is a principle and 10% is God's figure that each ought to give, grace ought to be more than law... It is easy to force a comparison if one wants to make the bible read that way but the bottom line is the NT church did not liken freewill offerings to tithing, not at all. :godisgood:
Darren -
The tithing laws ended with the Priesthood of Jesus (Heb 7:5,12,18), but many Jews did not stop practicing it until the Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70. -
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Darren -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4tkMu3Vrz0
His book is great. -
I have not read the whole thread, But I remember my pastor talking about this in a book he wrote.
Ok, in the old testament, the LEVI tribe was not given land, so it was up to the other 11 tribes of Isreal to support them, hence they were required to tithe 10 percent of their grain, wine, cattle, and other food supplies, and I think cloth as well, but I cant be for sure.
they even were required to take a levite on vacation with them every three years.
IF aN old testament JEW decided to give MONEY, they could, but they would have to pay 30 percent of their worth:
Lev 27:13 But if he will at all redeem it, then he shall add a fifth part thereof unto thy estimation.
Lev 27:31 And if a man will at all redeem aught of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
Now, today, everything we HAVE is from God, so, we are to give with a charitable heart. Look at the poor widow
Mar 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mar 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mar 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
I think that we should give with LOVE, NOT obligation. If we cant give money, then give time. -
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I will have to get that book I read and show more, but it is late, almost midnight, so it will have to be tomorrow maybe.
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In Malachi 3:8, the tithes were the third-year tithes brought to the temple that the priests stole from the Levites who were ministering there in their yearly cycle. The offerings were blemished sacrifices that the priests were burning upon the altar in the Temple in direct disobedience to God's law. Malachi 3:8-10 has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Christians "robbing God" by not giving 10%+ of their net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a local church. To believe that is to take Scripture out of context and twist it drastically.
The tithe of the Bible was God's agricultural tax and welfare system for the theocratic nation of Israel that was only of crops and livestock from the boundaries of the Promised Land and followed in seven-year cycle of annual feasts, third-year heaps, seven-year sabbaticals, and fiftieth-year Jubilees.
Tithing has NOTHING to do with Christians or the church. Christians simply give money, food, or whatever freely and cheerfully to support the church ministry and meet needs. The doctrines of NT giving and OT tithing are two completely distinct and unrelated subjects.
Please read my other posts in this thread. -
I completely agree that the tithe system was a national welfare system for Israel, good call; it functioned on a 3 year cycle the 7th being exempt for crop growers but not for the first-borns. Money was never given except in the case to redeem their giving of crops/first born but the cost was 1/5 extra (from memory). Nothing about tithing was ever an adopted practice in the NT church. And when collections were taken they were always freewill without any min/max but was according to the heart and love and sacrificial intentions of the giver.
The OT tithe was not even in comparison or contrast to the NT church collections only that the collections were for the needy and poor as was the argument Paul made in 2 Cor 9:9, the other use for giving was for the support of the church and its functions but I would argue what we have today is another matter altogether, in churches with payed pastors, church building funds, expenses, missions projects, evangelism works, bible college projects...etc Some churches really hang on the members tithes because they really need the money.
That's how I see it.
Darren
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