TO BE OR NOT TO BE

RighteousnessTemperance& · Aug 2, 2020

Alex2165 said: ↑

Hi Righteousness.

You wrote, " You are entirely missing the key point--the source of worthiness for salvation. It is not we but God who makes us worthy, and He does so by clothing us who believe with the Lord Jesus Christ. Here is a key pair of verses (1 Cor 1:30-31), but the context (1 Cor 1:18ff) is so rich, so powerful that I'm including it below."

Why GOD made only us worthy, why He do not made everybody worthy? Is it fair for those who left behind and have to faced consequences of their unworthiness?
...
Click to expand...

But God does make everyone who believes in Jesus Christ worthy; I never said otherwise. BTW, I'm not Calvinistic on this point. I maintain that God sovereignly makes it possible for all to believe or not, the Devil be damned.

Barry Johnson · Aug 2, 2020

Alex2165 said: ↑

TO BE OR NOT TO BE.

Reading some post on this site reminded me of my previous discussions on other "Christian Sites," from which I was kicked off and ban for good.

And this is why I posted here my thoughts, on "Other Christian Denomination," so very overzealous Baptists would not kicked me out and from this site. Consider me as a stranger and not Christian.

The troubles started when I challenged two major gospels of the Baptists and other Christian denominations. The gospel of Prosperity and gospel of Salvation.

The gospel of Prosperity is evidently false and does not need any introduction or explanation, its doctrine based on greed and lies, more money you give to the church the more you will be blessed that is their slogan and dogma. It is very similar to Catholic church in its past, when they forgave sins for money, the more money you pay, the more sins will be forgiven to you.

But gospels of Salvation is a little bit different. It is not based on money but rather on fear of death and blind devotion to those who promise easy salvation, but not on Biblical terms.

The point I tried to make is that people have to differentiate between general terminology of the Bible and literal terminology, between metaphors and figure of speech and direct reality of the statement.

In every Baptist church I even been, and I had been in many churches and lost account of them, I saw the same thing, church reassuring public that if you believe in Christ, and know that you are save, then you saved. If you believe that Christ is GOD but are not sure if you saved or not, then you are not saved. And of course for this occasion the church already prepared certain order of steps how to save this poor soul right in the church.

The ritual consists of putting a person on the knees before the altar or the pastor, and then pastor and elders will pray for a person, and perhaps will lay also they hands on his/her head, and after this short ceremony they ask him/her if he or she now believe in his/her own salvation, and the answer most of the time is positive, if not, that person will require more "ironing" until he or she admits and declares that he/she is now saved.

The major word in this ritual is "believing." Believing in what exactly, believing that Christ is GOD?

James 2.19
19.You believe that GOD is One, you do well. Even the demons believe and shudder. (and they not only believe, they know!)

So, what is "believing"? I never received any logical explanation on this question, and those who argued with me never answered it, but they kept bombarding me with general cliché and typical Christian slogans, but did not answer the question.

The ritual of salvation that church perform is completely not Biblical, false, and extremely dangerous for those to whom it given as a false hope. This is dead end of salvation and not the beginning of it.

I also heard very often in the church another false slogan, "Once you saved you always saved." This can be also challenged with scriptures of the Bible contradicting such statement.

Immediately after declaring my concerns about false hope of salvation that church give to the people, I was immediately bombarded by verses and passages of the Bible mentioning places of the scripture there Christ and His disciples taught and teach about salvation of the soul. All these verses and passages were of course of general nature, calling people to Christ for salvation, which are all true. It all can be summarize in one short statement, "Come to Me and be saved."

But they completely ignored those verses and passages of the Bible were precisely indicated how actually people can obtain salvation, and what they have to do to posses it. I presented them very hard places of the Bible, there salvation of soul must be achieved, accomplish, reach to, which is not easy.

Matthew 19.23-26.29
23.Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
24.Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for someone who is rich to enter the Kingdom of GOD.”
25.When the disciples heard this they were greatly astounded and said, “Then who can be saved?”
26.But Jesus looked at them and said, “For mortals it is impossible, *but for GOD all things are possible.

29.And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for My name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and will inherit Eternal Life." (Matthew 6.33, 19.29) (Mark 10.28-30) (Luke 18.28-30).

Luke 9.24
24."For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for My sake will save it." (Matthew 10.39, 16.25) (Mark 8.35) (Luke 9.24, 17.33) (John 12.25)

Luke 21.19
19.By your endurance you will gain your souls. (Matthew 10.22, 24.13) (Mark 13.13) (Luke 21.17-19) (John 15.21)

1Peter 2.2
2.Like newborn infants long for the pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow into salvation,

1Peter 4.18
18.And: ‘If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinners?’ (Proverbs 11.31)

Matthew 7.14
14.The gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to Life, and there are few who find it.

There is much more passages like these in the Bible but I do not want make my post too big. But my point is that there is another side of salvation, the side of straggle, effort, force, and even suffering. The side that no one really want to talk about in the church, nor to fulfill, because if salvation will so hard to achieve, there will be no parishioners in the church and with it no $. People do not like difficult things, people like short cut and easy way to achieve their goal. Personally I do not thing that salvation, according to those few verses above, will be so easy to obtain.

We have to remember but beside promises made to us by GOD, we also have and our obligations before Him, but unfortunately, people remember only good promises issued to them and not their own obligations, conditions, and requirements.
Click to expand...

We are saved by believing ( trusting ) on Jesus for our sins ,that he died for our sins , was buried and rose again on the third day , according to the scriptures. Simple .

Barry Johnson · Aug 2, 2020

Dave G said: ↑

I'm not sure I'm following what you're stating.
I've found Christ...
Or rather, He's found me, and that relationship only gets better as my life goes on.

He's taught me many things in His word through His Spirit, and humbled me much from what I was only 10 years ago.
He grows me and improves me through the many things He shows me in His word, and making good on His promises to deliver me and to work all things together for good, to them that love Him ( Romans 8:28 ).:)

I agree.
Faith without the evidence of works, which the believer was created in Christ Jesus to do ( Ephesians 2:10 ) is truly dead.
Works without faith, a faith that endures all of the trials and tribulations that come the believer's way, is what I tend to call "dead religion", and indicates a lack of a spirit to Spirit relationship with God and His Son.

Where the Spirit is, one will find those works that are truly good.
An example of good works would be selfless service to God's people.

I agree, Alex.
When I read the Scriptures, I see that eternal life is a precious gift given to those that the Lord loves.

He first opens their hearts so that they will listen to His words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 )...
They are "begotten" of His own will with the word of truth ( James 1:18 ).

We as believers go from being His enemies, to being reconciled in our minds to Him and His ways.
Click to expand...

Are you Lydia ? Lydia was already a believer in the God of Israel ..

Barry Johnson · Aug 2, 2020

Alex2165 said: ↑

TO BE OR NOT TO BE.

Reading some post on this site reminded me of my previous discussions on other "Christian Sites," from which I was kicked off and ban for good.

And this is why I posted here my thoughts, on "Other Christian Denomination," so very overzealous Baptists would not kicked me out and from this site. Consider me as a stranger and not Christian.

The troubles started when I challenged two major gospels of the Baptists and other Christian denominations. The gospel of Prosperity and gospel of Salvation.

The gospel of Prosperity is evidently false and does not need any introduction or explanation, its doctrine based on greed and lies, more money you give to the church the more you will be blessed that is their slogan and dogma. It is very similar to Catholic church in its past, when they forgave sins for money, the more money you pay, the more sins will be forgiven to you.

But gospels of Salvation is a little bit different. It is not based on money but rather on fear of death and blind devotion to those who promise easy salvation, but not on Biblical terms.

The point I tried to make is that people have to differentiate between general terminology of the Bible and literal terminology, between metaphors and figure of speech and direct reality of the statement.

In every Baptist church I even been, and I had been in many churches and lost account of them, I saw the same thing, church reassuring public that if you believe in Christ, and know that you are save, then you saved. If you believe that Christ is GOD but are not sure if you saved or not, then you are not saved. And of course for this occasion the church already prepared certain order of steps how to save this poor soul right in the church.

The ritual consists of putting a person on the knees before the altar or the pastor, and then pastor and elders will pray for a person, and perhaps will lay also they hands on his/her head, and after this short ceremony they ask him/her if he or she now believe in his/her own salvation, and the answer most of the time is positive, if not, that person will require more "ironing" until he or she admits and declares that he/she is now saved.

The major word in this ritual is "believing." Believing in what exactly, believing that Christ is GOD?

James 2.19
19.You believe that GOD is One, you do well. Even the demons believe and shudder. (and they not only believe, they know!)

So, what is "believing"? I never received any logical explanation on this question, and those who argued with me never answered it, but they kept bombarding me with general cliché and typical Christian slogans, but did not answer the question.

The ritual of salvation that church perform is completely not Biblical, false, and extremely dangerous for those to whom it given as a false hope. This is dead end of salvation and not the beginning of it.

I also heard very often in the church another false slogan, "Once you saved you always saved." This can be also challenged with scriptures of the Bible contradicting such statement.

Immediately after declaring my concerns about false hope of salvation that church give to the people, I was immediately bombarded by verses and passages of the Bible mentioning places of the scripture there Christ and His disciples taught and teach about salvation of the soul. All these verses and passages were of course of general nature, calling people to Christ for salvation, which are all true. It all can be summarize in one short statement, "Come to Me and be saved."

But they completely ignored those verses and passages of the Bible were precisely indicated how actually people can obtain salvation, and what they have to do to posses it. I presented them very hard places of the Bible, there salvation of soul must be achieved, accomplish, reach to, which is not easy.

Matthew 19.23-26.29
23.Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
24.Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for someone who is rich to enter the Kingdom of GOD.”
25.When the disciples heard this they were greatly astounded and said, “Then who can be saved?”
26.But Jesus looked at them and said, “For mortals it is impossible, *but for GOD all things are possible.

29.And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for My name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and will inherit Eternal Life." (Matthew 6.33, 19.29) (Mark 10.28-30) (Luke 18.28-30).

Luke 9.24
24."For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for My sake will save it." (Matthew 10.39, 16.25) (Mark 8.35) (Luke 9.24, 17.33) (John 12.25)

Luke 21.19
19.By your endurance you will gain your souls. (Matthew 10.22, 24.13) (Mark 13.13) (Luke 21.17-19) (John 15.21)

1Peter 2.2
2.Like newborn infants long for the pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow into salvation,

1Peter 4.18
18.And: ‘If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinners?’ (Proverbs 11.31)

Matthew 7.14
14.The gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to Life, and there are few who find it.

There is much more passages like these in the Bible but I do not want make my post too big. But my point is that there is another side of salvation, the side of straggle, effort, force, and even suffering. The side that no one really want to talk about in the church, nor to fulfill, because if salvation will so hard to achieve, there will be no parishioners in the church and with it no $. People do not like difficult things, people like short cut and easy way to achieve their goal. Personally I do not thing that salvation, according to those few verses above, will be so easy to obtain.

We have to remember but beside promises made to us by GOD, we also have and our obligations before Him, but unfortunately, people remember only good promises issued to them and not their own obligations, conditions, and requirements.
Click to expand...

Mathew 7.14 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Find what ? could you answer me please as to 'find what 'in the above verse ?

Dave G · Aug 2, 2020

Barry Johnson said: ↑

Are you Lydia ?
Click to expand...

Just like Lydia, God opens hearts so that men will listen to the Gospel.

Some call it "drawing" ( John 6:44 ).

Dave G · Aug 2, 2020

Barry Johnson said: ↑

Mathew 7.14 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Find what ? could you answer me please as to 'find what 'in the above verse ?
Click to expand...

Find the way which leads to life, Barry.

That is what it says.

Barry Johnson · Aug 2, 2020

Dave G said: ↑

Just like Lydia, God opens hearts so that men will listen to the Gospel.

Some call it "drawing" ( John 6:44 ).
Click to expand...

But this is about What God did to Lydia who was already a worshipper of God .
when you say 'just like Lydia ' where is the support for this ? I have a verse that says John the baptist had The Holy Spirit from the womb . Do we then say ' Just like John the Baptist God gives the Holy Spirit in the womb to people today in 2020 ?
.Acts is about the transition period from the old to the new and from jew to gentiles . Its not a pattern for normative reality for after that period or today .

Barry Johnson · Aug 2, 2020

Dave G said: ↑

Find the way which leads to life, Barry.

That is what it says.
Click to expand...

Yes and the answer is John 14 .6

Barry Johnson · Aug 2, 2020

Dave G said: ↑

Just like Lydia, God opens hearts so that men will listen to the Gospel.

Some call it "drawing" ( John 6:44 ).
Click to expand...

'some call it drawing ' ? Lydia is already worshipping God .This is the worst example for Calvinism to use .

Alex2165 · Aug 2, 2020

Good pondering Dave. I can only say, Amen.

GOD bless you too.

Alex2165 · Aug 2, 2020

Barry Johnson said: ↑

Mathew 7.14 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Find what ? could you answer me please as to 'find what 'in the above verse ?
Click to expand...

Matthew 7.13-14
13.Enter by the narrow gate. The gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it.
14.The gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.

"The Narrow gate" means life according to GOD Statutes and Commandments with severely restrict human beings from the worldly way of life. The Law of GOD narrows us into a certain specific set of Rules and Regulations and created a border fence around us.

"The Wide gate" means life of the world that follows very wide range of their own set of rules, regulations, and free will options which are not compatible with life in the "narrow gate." Morality of the world have no limit in its variety and everyone has their own morality based on their own desires and will, and this is why it is called "The Wide Gate," means wide choices of laws and morality.

Because Jesus used word, "gate" in these Statements, He meant a Kingdom, because Kingdoms have gates. Today we call it a border post. Fortified cities in ancient times had gates which can be locked from inside.

" be that find it" Jesus did not meant ordinary city or kingdom, He meant Heavenly Kingdom, His Kingdom. So the answer will be, that those who go through a "Narrow Gate" means through the Law and Statutes of the Lord, will find "that find it" the Kingdom of GOD.

The "Wide Gate" through which world follows will lead to a dead end.

Barry Johnson · Aug 3, 2020

Alex2165 said: ↑

Matthew 7.13-14
13.Enter by the narrow gate. The gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it.
14.The gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.

"The Narrow gate" means life according to GOD Statutes and Commandments with severely restrict human beings from the worldly way of life. The Law of GOD narrows us into a certain specific set of Rules and Regulations and created a border fence around us.

"The Wide gate" means life of the world that follows very wide range of their own set of rules, regulations, and free will options which are not compatible with life in the "narrow gate." Morality of the world have no limit in its variety and everyone has their own morality based on their own desires and will, and this is why it is called "The Wide Gate," means wide choices of laws and morality.

Because Jesus used word, "gate" in these Statements, He meant a Kingdom, because Kingdoms have gates. Today we call it a border post. Fortified cities in ancient times had gates which can be locked from inside.

" be that find it" Jesus did not meant ordinary city or kingdom, He meant Heavenly Kingdom, His Kingdom. So the answer will be, that those who go through a "Narrow Gate" means through the Law and Statutes of the Lord, will find "that find it" the Kingdom of GOD.

The "Wide Gate" through which world follows will lead to a dead end.
Click to expand...

Could it just be as simple as 'Jesus ' . To Find that He is the Only way.

Alex2165 · Aug 3, 2020

Barry Johnson said: ↑

Could it just be as simple as 'Jesus ' . To Find that He is the Only way.
Click to expand...

He is the only "Narrow Gate."

Barry Johnson · Aug 4, 2020

Alex2165 said: ↑

He is the only "Narrow Gate."
Click to expand...

Yes . Because of pride , wealth and many other reasons some reject .

37818 · Aug 4, 2020

Alex2165 said: ↑

. . . and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of GOD, and put Him to open shame.

These statements cannot be ignored and the slogan " Once we are saved we are saved " cannot be true because we ourselves declaring to be saved, but we forgot Who is the Master of salvation, and Who give it and Who takes it from human beings. We saved only then, when we finish our lifecycle, . . .
Click to expand...

How do you think one obeys the gospel? Matthew 7:21-23 are some who did not. 2 Thessalonians 1:8. . .

Alex2165 · Aug 4, 2020

37818 said: ↑

How do you think one obeys the gospel? Matthew 7:21-23 are some who did not. 2 Thessalonians 1:8. . .
Click to expand...

Your quotes perfectly support my point of view. And I can add to it.

Matthew 7.21.24-27
21."Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in Heaven.

I am not talking only about non-believers, but I am talking about those who call themselves believers, particularly those who already considered themselves saved, just because Jesus used general terminology to spark attention in peoples' minds to His words.

What is general terminology? General terminology is like the name of the book. You read the name of the book, and probably already guess what the book all about. But in order to know exactly the theme of the book, you need opened it and read it.

Jesus Christ call people to Himself by many different ways and by many parables, but sometimes He explained directly how to find Him, How to obey Him, and how to enter His Kingdom and inherit eternal life.

So, His slogans brought people to Him to listen, but His literal explanations of how to obey the Lord and achieve salvation relayed on the actual deeds and works.

And Matthew pointed exactly how people responded to Jesus' call. Those who responded to Jesus only by His general terminology and slogans, and calling Him constantly "Lord, Lord" for whatever reason, but do not do His will, such "Christian" minimized greatly their chance of salvation.

Those Christians who do will of GOD, they do not need general calls and slogans, because they already know what to do, and how to fulfill the will of the Lord.

1John 5.3
3.The love of GOD is this that we obey His Commandments. And His Commandments are not burdensome,

And, what the will of the Lord? The will of the Lord is to obey His Commandments.

COMMANDMENT - 1

You shall have no other gods.

(Exodus 20.1-3)

2."I am the Lord your GOD Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

3.You shall have no other gods before Me.

COMMANDMENT - 2

You shall not make an idol.

(Exodus 20.4-6.23)

4.You shall not make for yourself an idol or any likeness of what is in heaven above, or on the earth beneath, or in water under the earth.

5.You shall not worship them or serve them, I the Lord your GOD, am a jealous GOD, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

6.but showing loving-kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

COMMANDMENT - 3

You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain.

(Exodus 20.7)

7.You shall not take the name of the Lord your GOD in vain, the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.

COMMANDMENT - 4

Observe the Sabbath Day.

(Exodus 20.8-11)

8.Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy.

9.Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

10.but the Seventh Day is a Sabbath of the Lord your GOD, in it you shall not do any work, you or your son, or your daughter, your male, or your female servant, or your cattle, or your resident alien who stays with you.

11.In six days the Lord made the heavens and the Earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the Seventh Day, therefore

the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

COMMANDMENT - 5

Honor your father and mother.

(Exodus 20.12)

12.Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your GOD gives you.

COMMANDMENT - 6

You shall no murder.

(Exodus 20.13)

13.You shall not murder.

COMMANDMENT - 7

You shall not commit adultery.

(Exodus 20.14)

14.You shall not commit adultery.

COMMANDMENT - 8

You shall not steal.

(Exodus 20.15)

15.You shall not steal.

COMMANDMENT - 9

You shall not bear false witness.

(Exodus 20.16)

16.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

COMMANDMENT - 10

You shall not covet anything belonging to others.

(Exodus 20.17)

17.You shall not covet your neighbor's house, you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

(About 10 Commandments see also: Deuteronomy 5.6-22)

These spiritual Commandments represent Constitution of the Old and the New Testaments, on which Jesus Christ built His teachings and His sermons. Whoever obeys them, indeed fulfill the will of the Lord.

But it does not means what a person already saved. Until a person completes his/her life cycle and live according to His Commandments, then such person a perfect candidate for the Heavenly Kingdom.

We live in Hope what we live according to His will, and we obey the Lord in Hope what we doing right things, and we look toward His Kingdom in Hope what some day we will be saved. This is why I posted "Among Three Greatest" in which Hope plays one of major roles in our relation with GOD.

If some of you base own salvation only on general terms and slogans of Jesus, as many Baptist do, and think that GOD'S Commandments no longer needed for salvation, you are certainly mistaken.

37818 · Aug 4, 2020

Alex2165 said: ↑

COMMANDMENT - 1

You shall have no other gods.
Click to expand...

You quote the second commandment of the Law as if it were the first.

The first commandment of the Law is who the true God is, "I am the LORD thy God, . . ." To have eternal life is to know God, John 17:3.

Van · Aug 7, 2020

Hi Alex2165,

You have made many dogmatic statements, disparaging many believers. Are we to see your posts as a cry for help?

1) What is your understanding, are we to believe (think that it is true) certain things to be saved? That would put salvation in the hands of the believer, believe all the right things and voila you are automatically saved. Is that what you believe?

2) What do you see as different between "dead faith" and "live faith?" (James 2:14-26)

Alex2165 · Aug 7, 2020

Van said: ↑

Hi Alex2165,

You have made many dogmatic statements, disparaging many believers. Are we to see your posts as a cry for help?

1) What is your understanding, are we to believe (think that it is true) certain things to be saved? That would put salvation in the hands of the believer, believe all the right things and voila you are automatically saved. Is that what you believe?

2) What do you see as different between "dead faith" and "live faith?" (James 2:14-26)
Click to expand...

To Van.

You wrote:
"You have made many dogmatic statements, disparaging many believers. Are we to see your posts as a cry for help?"

Give me some example of my dogmatic statements, please. Above all I do not need any help, I already receive all the help I need, thanks GOD!

You wrote:
"1) What is your understanding, are we to believe (think that it is true) certain things to be saved? That would put salvation in the hands of the believer, believe all the right things and voila you are automatically saved. Is that what you believe?"

And what you think, pray to GOD, give Him lip service on Sundays, put you dollar on the plate, declare that you already saved, " and voila you are automatically saved. Is that what you believe?"

Did you ever read my posts and read the passages of the Bible I posted in order to prove my point? So tell me, what is so disturbing in my posts? Is because I think and understood the Bible not like the Baptists do?

Thank GOD that people are different. Imagine the world that everyone will think and believe like a Baptist!

And again, give a good though to this statement below Van.

Matthew 7.21.24-27
21."Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in Heaven.

That should be a slogan for Baptists, and not self-righteousness and self-declared salvation.

Remember story Christ told about Pharisee and a tax-collector; both praying in the Temple to GOD. The tax-collector repented greatly knowing that he is the great sinner, but Pharisee claimed to be good and not such a sinner as the tax-collector.

Guess, who of them left the Temple more justified?

Van · Aug 8, 2020

Alex2165 said: ↑

To Van.

You wrote:
"1) What is your understanding, are we to believe (think that it is true) certain things to be saved? That would put salvation in the hands of the believer, believe all the right things and voila you are automatically saved. Is that what you believe?"

And what you think, pray to GOD, give Him lip service on Sundays, put you dollar on the plate, declare that you already saved, " and voila you are automatically saved. Is that what you believe?"
Click to expand...

Above is my question and your (non)answer.

People who ask questions but do not answer them apparently do not consider others more important than themselves. Nuff said.

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