Or that jesus originated the DoG!
believe that in matter of how God functions in Sotierology, the DoG do indeed express the salvation model best, but ANY theological system exoplains the Gospel, but are NOT it!
Same way, jesus did NOT originate/author DoG, could say that the Holy Spirit indeed did, but by claiming jesus as author directly implies non cals denying jesus!
Now , back to the ole cal Vrs Arm debates!
To My Fellow believers here Of DoG PLEASE stop calling Calvinism the Gospel!
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by DaChaser1, Feb 3, 2012.
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I hope it is.
John -
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John -
People are usually quoting Spurgeon when they say "Calvinism is the gospel." Here's Spurgeon's words in context so we can understand better what he was meaning.
"I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor."
http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Seriously your getting quite personal sometimes with these barbs. The Lurkers are watching!:wavey: -
I was just speaking of when Calvinists talk all compassionate about wanting more people to be elected, showing they have more compassion than they think God does....
It's like when Paul in the first part of Romans 9 expresses the great love for his fellow countrymen and was even willing to be accused for their sakes. Calvinists actually believe that Paul goes on to write that God hates most of those countryman and has hardened them to certain condemnation from their birth. If that were true then you'd have to believe Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Spirit, is actually more loving and merciful than the God he serves. That, to me, makes Calvinism's errors so very self-evident. I want the 'lurkers' to see that, and its not personal. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
What I think you are missing is this. When Spurgeon makes this statement what he is saying is simply this.
in other words these 3 facts are not the gospel....
1]how that Christ died for our sins
2]he was buried
3]that he rose again the third day
These facts are not good news,unless a sinner is born from above. Unless God allows them to believe it savingly...they will as Paul writes in verse 2
unless ye have believed in vain.Click to expand...
He reveals all the other doctrine that leads to the gospel...all 5 points figure in
to mans fall and breaking the law of God...T
God electing sinners to be saved .......... U
Jesus becoming incarnate for the elect..........L.......he dies a covenant death for them...according to scripture
The Spirit effectually drawing the elect.........I
The Spirit giving a new heart, at regeneration..P.....enabling them to keep God's law that is in their hearts and to perservere....according to the scriptures...
looks like the gospel...or GOOD NEWS to me.
The scripture comes from God. He reveals what we have written in scripture.
Many who believe the scriptures call what is revealed in them...the truth of calvinism.....So if scripture is God's word written....and what the scripture reveals is .....TULIP...theologically....then you can see what Spurgeon and others mean by the statement.
You might not want to use it...or the terms...but others have no problem with it,,if properly understood. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterSkandelon said: ↑Isn't he the one who said, "Save the elect and elect some more..." or something like that? I love it when Calvinists are more merciful than they think God actually is...it makes their error all the more manifest. :godisgood:Click to expand...
Calvinists are very content with God's electing love. Calvinists rest in the truth of God and His electing Love.
God will save all he can wisely save...no more, no less.....His righteous and Holy plan and purpose is being made known in time.
Calvinists love the truth of God...and would like to see all grow in grace and be comforted by these great truths....so they would not be tormented by these "dark thoughts about an austere strawman god "who people attempt to substitute for the true God as revealed in the word.
I want the 'lurkers' to see that, and its not personal.Click to expand...
Calvinists actually believe that Paul goes on to write that God hates most of those countryman and has hardened them to certain condemnation from their birthClick to expand... -
DaChaser1 said: ↑Or that jesus originated the DoG!
believe that in matter of how God functions in Sotierology, the DoG do indeed express the salvation model best, but ANY theological system exoplains the Gospel, but are NOT it!
Same way, jesus did NOT originate/author DoG, could say that the Holy Spirit indeed did, but by claiming jesus as author directly implies non cals denying jesus!
Now , back to the ole cal Vrs Arm debates!Click to expand...
Noncalvinists will not be persuaded with sympathy. -
jbh28 said: ↑People are usually quoting Spurgeon when they say "Calvinism is the gospel." Here's Spurgeon's words in context so we can understand better what he was meaning.
"I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor."
http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htmClick to expand... -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite SupporterSkandelon said: ↑Oh, you don't need to call me that. "Your majesty" will do fine. :)
Personal? What was personal? Did I hurt someone's feelings? :smilewinkgrin:
I was just speaking of when Calvinists talk all compassionate about wanting more people to be elected, showing they have more compassion than they think God does....
It's like when Paul in the first part of Romans 9 expresses the great love for his fellow countrymen and was even willing to be accused for their sakes. Calvinists actually believe that Paul goes on to write that God hates most of those countryman and has hardened them to certain condemnation from their birth. If that were true then you'd have to believe Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Spirit, is actually more loving and merciful than the God he serves. That, to me, makes Calvinism's errors so very self-evident. I want the 'lurkers' to see that, and its not personal.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast said: ↑DC,
What I think you are missing is this. When Spurgeon makes this statement what he is saying is simply this.
According to the scriptures...includes all the elements of the gospel.....not just the HISTORIC FACTS of the gospel
in other words these 3 facts are not the gospel....
1]how that Christ died for our sins
2]he was buried
3]that he rose again the third day
These facts are not good news,unless a sinner is born from above. Unless God allows them to believe it savingly...they will as Paul writes in verse 2
So ...how does God save sinners so they do not believe"in vain".
He reveals all the other doctrine that leads to the gospel...all 5 points figure in
to mans fall and breaking the law of God...T
God electing sinners to be saved .......... U
Jesus becoming incarnate for the elect..........L.......he dies a covenant death for them...according to scripture
The Spirit effectually drawing the elect.........I
The Spirit giving a new heart, at regeneration..P.....enabling them to keep God's law that is in their hearts and to perservere....according to the scriptures...
looks like the gospel...or GOOD NEWS to me.
The scripture comes from God. He reveals what we have written in scripture.
Many who believe the scriptures call what is revealed in them...the truth of calvinism.....So if scripture is God's word written....and what the scripture reveals is .....TULIP...theologically....then you can see what Spurgeon and others mean by the statement.
You might not want to use it...or the terms...but others have no problem with it,,if properly understood.Click to expand...
Good work. -
Earth said: ↑When you boil it down, what you are really opposed to is Predestination. So that all readers are made aware, I will go over it to clarify. All Doctrines of Grace Believers maintain that God has predestined a great number to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom.8: 28-30) .While some object to this doctrine because they say it is unfair, we Doctrines of Grace Believers rejoice in it, for we see that had it not been for predestination, the whole human family would have been lost forever. Predestination is not the thing that condemns a person, or puts them in a ruined condition, but the very thing that gets them out of such a state. Predestination concerns not "what" but "whom." It is the great purpose of God to lift a people up from sin and corruption and make them like Jesus Christ. That to us is glorious!Click to expand...
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Aaron said: ↑Noncalvinists will not be persuaded with sympathy.Click to expand...
Too many of our DoG brethren think that you can win "non-cals" over with sweetness.
You can't.
You won't win many over with any means you use.
But you will win some with blunt facts.
Those you win that way will be better off because they were not petted in- they were persuaded in. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite SupporterLuke2427 said: ↑I do wish we could get folks on our side to see this.
Too many of our DoG brethren think that you can win "non-cals" over with sweetness.
You can't.
You won't win many over with any means you use.
But you will win some with blunt facts.
Those you win that way will be better off because they were not petted in- they were persuaded in.Click to expand... -
Earth said: ↑And what error is that specifically "Oh Great & Mighty" Mod? :tongue3:
Seriously your getting quite personal sometimes with these barbs. The Lurkers are watching!:wavey:Click to expand... -
Earth said: ↑When you boil it down, what you are really opposed to is Predestination. So that all readers are made aware, I will go over it to clarify. All Doctrines of Grace Believers maintain that God has predestined a great number to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom.8: 28-30) .While some object to this doctrine because they say it is unfair, we Doctrines of Grace Believers rejoice in it, for we see that had it not been for predestination, the whole human family would have been lost forever. Predestination is not the thing that condemns a person, or puts them in a ruined condition, but the very thing that gets them out of such a state. Predestination concerns not "what" but "whom." It is the great purpose of God to lift a people up from sin and corruption and make them like Jesus Christ. That to us is glorious!Click to expand...
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