Featured To Obey God rather than tradition is legalism? Really??

I see - so the "Baptist Confession of Faith" is titled "Baptist Confession of Faith" - thanks for pointing that out.

I think we all learned something there.

No back to the actual details IN the document, section 19, section 22 and how it actually relates to this thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19

I clicked on the link in your own post above and it worked - anyone else having difficulty getting to that link?

Try going to this link and then clicking on section 19

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm

 

Hold on just a minute before running away from the subject you just quoted above.

Section 19 above -

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19

THE LAW OF GOD

19.1 God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart,1 and a specific precept not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.2 By this he bound him and all his descendants to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience. God promised life on fulfilling it, and threatened death on breaching it, and he endued him with power and ability to keep it.3
(1) Gen 1:27; Ecc 7:29; Rom 2:12a,14-15
(2) Gen 2:16-17
(3) Gen 2:16-17; Rom 10:5; Gal 3:10,12




19.2 The same law that was first written in the human heart continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall.1 It was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in TEN commandments (written in two tables) the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to our fellow beings.3
(1) For the Fourth Commandment: Gen 2:3; Exo 16; Gen 7:4; 8:10,12. For the Fifth Commandment: Gen 37:10. For the Sixth Commandment: Gen 4:3-15. For the Seventh Commandment: Gen 12:17. For the Eighth Commandment: Gen 31:30; 44:8. For the Ninth Commandment: Gen 27:12. For the Tenth Commandment: Gen 6:2; 13:10-11
(2) Rom 2:12a,14-15
(3) Exo 32:15-16; 34:4,28; Deu 10:4




19.3 Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased to give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These were partly concerning worship, and in them Christ was prefigured—his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits.1 They also gave instructions about various moral duties.2 All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of the New Testament, when Jesus Christ abrogated them and took them away, for he was the true Messiah and only law-giver, and was empowered to do this by the Father.3
(1) Heb 10:1; Col 2:16-17
(2) 1Co 5:7; 2Co 6:17; Jude 1:23
(3) Col 2:14,16-17; Eph 2:14-16




19.4 To the people of Israel he also gave various judicial laws which lapsed when they ceased as a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation,1 but their principles of equity continue to be applicable in modern times.2
(1) Luk 21:20-24; Act 6:13-14; Heb 9:18-19 with 8:7,13; 9:10; 10:1
(2) 1Co 5:1; 9:8-10




19.5 Obedience to the moral law remains forever binding on all, both justified persons and others,1 both in regard to the content of the law, and also to the authority of God the Creator who gave the law.2 Nor does Christ in any way dissolve this law in the Gospel, on the contrary, he strengthens our obligation [to obey the moral law].3
(1) Mat 19:16-22; Rom 2:14-15; 3:19-20; 6:14; 7:6; 8:3; 1Ti 1:8-11; Rom 13:8-10; 1Co 7:19 with Gal 5:6; 6:15; Eph 4:25-6:4; Jas 2:11-12
(2) Jas 2:10-11
(3) Mat 5:17-19; Rom 3:31; 1Co 9:21; Jas 2:8


--------------

The subject and title of this thread - is about debunking the fallacy that if we choose to obey the Word of God - over man made tradition it must be legalism.

Try not to stray too far from the topic.

Notice how the "Baptist Confession of Faith" (quotes put in so as not to disturb targus or salty) debunks the bogus doctrine that obeying the Law of God instead of man-made tradition is legalism.

(BTW that verbatim quote above from that document is going to get spun around and called a "misquote of the Baptist Confession of Faith" sooner or later - free will being what it is for those wanting to make stuff up.)

in Christ,

Bob

 

I first walk - then I take a flight - angels usually but sometimes it is pelican:laugh:

Did you find a Bible text about not driving your car on Sabbath - and then a man-made-tradition that said "oh no you must drive your car on Sabbath and if you obey the Bible instead you are a legalist"??

Or are you tying this to the subject of this thread in some "other" way??

in Christ,

Bob

 

Not according to the "Baptist Confession of Faith".
"http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19"

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19


THE LAW OF GOD

19.1 God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart,1 and a specific precept not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.2 By this he bound him and all his descendants to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience. God promised life on fulfilling it, and threatened death on breaching it, and he endued him with power and ability to keep it.3
(1) Gen 1:27; Ecc 7:29; Rom 2:12a,14-15
(2) Gen 2:16-17
(3) Gen 2:16-17; Rom 10:5; Gal 3:10,12




19.2 The same law that was first written in the human heart continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall.1 It was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai2 in TEN commandments (written in two tables) the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to our fellow beings.3
(1) For the Fourth Commandment: Gen 2:3; Exo 16; Gen 7:4; 8:10,12. For the Fifth Commandment: Gen 37:10. For the Sixth Commandment: Gen 4:3-15. For the Seventh Commandment: Gen 12:17. For the Eighth Commandment: Gen 31:30; 44:8. For the Ninth Commandment: Gen 27:12. For the Tenth Commandment: Gen 6:2; 13:10-11
(2) Rom 2:12a,14-15
(3) Exo 32:15-16; 34:4,28; Deu 10:4




19.3 Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased to give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These were partly concerning worship, and in them Christ was prefigured—his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits.1 They also gave instructions about various moral duties.2 All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of the New Testament, when Jesus Christ abrogated them and took them away, for he was the true Messiah and only law-giver, and was empowered to do this by the Father.3
(1) Heb 10:1; Col 2:16-17
(2) 1Co 5:7; 2Co 6:17; Jude 1:23
(3) Col 2:14,16-17; Eph 2:14-16



19.4 To the people of Israel he also gave various judicial laws which lapsed when they ceased as a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation,1 but their principles of equity continue to be applicable in modern times.2
(1) Luk 21:20-24; Act 6:13-14; Heb 9:18-19 with 8:7,13; 9:10; 10:1
(2) 1Co 5:1; 9:8-10



19.5 Obedience to the moral law remains forever binding on all, both justified persons and others,1 both in regard to the content of the law, and also to the authority of God the Creator who gave the law.2 Nor does Christ in any way dissolve this law in the Gospel, on the contrary, he strengthens our obligation [to obey the moral law].

=====================================

And obviously they are right about the 4th commandment not being deleted at the cross - and so ALL TEN still applicable - since as we see in Isaiah 66 EVEN in the New Earth of Rev 21 - "From Sabbath to Sabbath .,.. shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".

in Christ,

Bob

 

As modified by C.H. Spurgeon

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part19
[FONT=&quot]
. The Law of God - Baptist Confession of Faith: Section 19[/FONT]
1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

==================================

Obviously - the "Baptist Confession of Faith" does not limit the TEN COMMANDMENTS to "just Jews" no not even the "4th Commandment to Just Jews" - but rather it states that ALL Ten apply to ALL mankind even justified saints today.

And of course - they are right to do so - EVEN though ALL TEN start off with the statement by God that -

Exodus 20

King James Version (KJV)

Ex 20
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

So when someone says you cannot keep the first 3 or 4 commandments without first "identifying your tribe" they are missing some key details. Even by "Baptist Confession of Faith" standards.

Notice that in Gen 2:3 we have the fourth commandment given to mankind (even by "Baptist Confession of Faith" standards) and yet Adam and Eve are not required to first figure out which of the 12 tribes they belong to - before obeying God.

in Christ,


Bob

 

Until you actually click on the link and look at actual history and find out otherwise.

I am not here to stop you from engaging in revisionist histories pretending that these documents do not exist. You have free will and you can choose to do that if you like.

I am not arguing against that. I am arguing against the wild notion that the SDAs are the only Christians that affirm the Ten commandments, even the 4th commandment - given to mankind - applicable to the saints today.

I am pointing out that the Baptists themselves have an "inconvenient document" affirmed in their history by D.L. Moody, C.H.Spurgeon and even Andy Stanley and others today - that does not support the wild notion that SDAs are the only Christians admitting to some of these key Bible facts regarding the TEN Commandments.

And frankly - I don't think you "honestly" believe that the document called the "Baptist Confession of Faith" does not exist. Not sure why you are taking such an extreme position in your post.

This is where you do admit to the document and to C.H. Spurgeon's edit of it? And to the fact that it is modeled almost identically to the "Westminster Confession of Faith" in section 19.

Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob

 

As modified by C.H. Spurgeon

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part19
[FONT=&quot]
. The Law of God - Baptist Confession of Faith: Section 19[/FONT]
1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

==================================

Obviously - the "Baptist Confession of Faith" does not limit the TEN COMMANDMENTS to "just Jews" no not even the "4th Commandment to Just Jews" - but rather it states that ALL Ten apply to ALL mankind even justified saints today.

And of course - they are right to do so - EVEN though ALL TEN start off with the statement by God that -

Exodus 20

King James Version (KJV)

Ex 20
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

So when someone says you cannot keep the first 3 or 4 commandments without first "identifying your tribe" they are missing some key details. Even by "Baptist Confession of Faith" standards.

Notice that in Gen 2:3 we have the fourth commandment given to mankind (even by "Baptist Confession of Faith" standards) and yet Adam and Eve are not required to first figure out which of the 12 tribes they belong to - before obeying God.

You are ducking the point above. In my post I don't argue that you must believe your own "Baptist Confession of Faith" (After all we are not talking about the "Adventist Confession of Faith")

Nor do I argue that you must accept C.H. Spurgeon's edit of it, or D.L. Moody's acceptance of it or Andy Stanley's acceptance of it ... etc.

I argue that these guys do not insist that they must figure out which tribe Adam came from before they can admit that the Gen 2:3 fourth commandment was kept by Adam.

In the same way when in Rom 2 Paul says that they are true Israel who are made such by the Holy Spirit (and also says this in Romans 9) he does not add "But first they must figure out what tribe they are from".

The post above was in answer to a rather odd idea that you came up with - I am simply pointing out that not only do SDAs not consider that idea to hold water - but even your own fellow Baptists reject it.

You are free to hold to it "anyway". You have free will and can do whatever you like.

I am showing the objectivity of the broader context.

in Christ,

Bob