You go Elisha! [emoji57]Don't worry, Glen. God only made a few perfect heads. The rest he hid under a lot of hair.
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Total Depravity vs Free Will
- Thread starter tyndale1946
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I wish I had more time to spend on here. I can't keep up with ya'll. I have a lot of questions that keep coming to mind.
Question: If regeneration occurs first, and faith occurs immediately afterward, how do we explain people who have the Word of God preached to them, they obviously experience conviction and a drawing of the Spirit, but they resist, sometimes for years, before conversion?
Question: What about verses like John 20:31 that says "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." It sounds like in this verse that belief comes first, in order to have life.
Question: How do some Calvinists have the nerve to call people reprobates when they have no idea who the elect are? They have no idea when regeneration will occur in someone. At one time they were also unbelievers, but not reprobate. Are these the hyper-Calvinists?
Question: If Adam was spiritually living and had free will, then why, when we are made alive spiritually do we not have that same free will?
Question: If regeneration occurs first, and faith occurs immediately afterward, how do we explain people who have the Word of God preached to them, they obviously experience conviction and a drawing of the Spirit, but they resist, sometimes for years, before conversion?
Question: What about verses like John 20:31 that says "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." It sounds like in this verse that belief comes first, in order to have life.
Question: How do some Calvinists have the nerve to call people reprobates when they have no idea who the elect are? They have no idea when regeneration will occur in someone. At one time they were also unbelievers, but not reprobate. Are these the hyper-Calvinists?
Question: If Adam was spiritually living and had free will, then why, when we are made alive spiritually do we not have that same free will?
My simple advice is this, AVOID "Calvinism" which has done much damage to the saving of lost souls. I think that Jonah was a "Calvinist" who did not want God to save Nineveh, the enemies of the Jews, but God's Love and Mercy is that "He is willing that NONE perish". the first four "Points" of Calvinism are totally not from the Bible, regardless of their trying to argue that they are. I find that they do NOT know or understand HOW MUCH God actually LOVES ALL the lost, as He says so many times in the Bible, like Ezekiel, Why should the wicked perish? etc, That is way Jesus cried over Jerusalem, because He knew of the pending judgement and the souls that would be lost. I remember being told by someone who attends Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, England, which is Calvinistic, when the minister, Dr Peter Masters chided his congregation, by saying they are ready to bang people on the head with their "theology", but greatly lacked in love and compassion. SPOT ON. This is how I have seen Calvinists over the past 35 years as a Christian, cold and deceived as thinking that somehow THEY are "elected" by God, and the rest are damned to hell! This doctrine is "elitism" and God HATES it, as He very much does "Limited Atonement".
I agree with this...gasp, the horror!!
J/K Brother Martin.Now, what about those who died never hearing about Christ? Did the Spirit convict them of their sins whilslt never knowing of the Christ's existence?
BZZZZZZ!!! Wrong!!
We were His sheep from before the creation of the world. See Ephesians 1:4. Then read Ezekiel 34, John 10, John 17, Romans 28-37...
First, I firmly reject the label of calvinist just so you know.
However while Jonathan Edwards probably wasn't a strict calvinist but Reformed he taught unconditional election:
God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men (Romans 9:18)
Edwards - God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men (Romans 9:18)
Also Freedom of the Will (Free eBook)
Free eBook: "Freedom of the Will," by Jonathan Edwards • ChurchLeaders.com
Jonathan Edwards was a principle vessel chosen of God for the dawning of The American Great Awakening and myriads of souls come into the kingdom via his preaching which was unparalleled in our history.
Yes many Arminian types (Wesley brothers) also were used of God to fill the empty churches in the 18th century also unparalleled in history (apart for Edwards).
This proves (to me anyway) that God is not exclusive in selection of either theology since He (God) IMO is willing to give us latitude in the modern dilemma of the "tension" so-called between His Absolute Sovereignty and the Free Will of Humankind to the preaching of the gospel.
HankD
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Shame on you for making such a stupid statement. Tonight my home church hosted our monthly sing with the other churches in our Missionary Baptist association, and these churches are NOT Calvinistic. But during service, I got up and sang two songs. Before I sang, I had the church pray with me for my lost wife's salvation, and all the other lost ppl in our community. I was trying to hold back my tears as I was speaking to God through prayer. I told them I would even trade places with her and suffer in hell if I could. But I know that I can not do that. But to say we don't want everyone to be saved is a flat-out lie!!!!!
It was Finney who has do way too much harm in churches today. Look to him for the downfall of our churches in America. Our theology in the USA is 3,000 long, 1,500 miles wide and 1/2" deep...
Firstly, none of my statement is "stupid", this is what I have experienced first hand from the Calvinists that I knew and still know. Secondly, why do the majority of Calvinists make every effort to distort what the Bible plainly teaches by trying to change the meanings of words and texts? Like John 3:16, where even Calvin himself says that it refers to "everyone without exception", yet there are those who insist that it means "elect"? When Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:4 that God wants ALL to be saved, where the context demands that it means "the entire human race", again, it is limited to "elect" by most who claim they are "Calvinists". And, 2 Peter 2:1, clearly says that Jesus died (bought) for even the heretics, again it is argued that this does not refer to "redemption", even though the standard Greek lexicons say that it does? There are MANY examples from the Bible that teach a "universal atonement" (not salvation) , and yet every passage is dismissed by Calvinists who use every trick to undermine or change what the Bible teaches. Calvinism is at odds with the Lord Himself, Who clearly says that He LOVES the entire human race, and wants them saved, and yet Calvinists say otherwise, that He actually hates the "non elect" to predestine them to hell! These are plain facts that you cannot deny or reject.
Complete nonsense. It is the hardness of Calvinism that has caused many to turn away from the Lord. It is no wonder that the greater number of "reformed" Churches are on the decline, while those to do teach "God so loves the whole world" are being blessed by the Lord.
And John Calvin himself taught "UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT".
Brother, these churches you are propping up are rapidly declining in my area. They teach a God of Play Doh who is shaped and molded into whatever is convenient at the time.
I know of two free will believing churches whose 'pastor' up and left with another woman. One was a 17 y/o that he had gotten pregnant.
So, do not give me this nonsense about only Calvinist churches on the decline.
Also, look at John 3:16. I wholeheartedly agree that God so loved the world. Yet, God is also immutable. So, if God loves them and then turns around and casts them into hell, then He either, 1) loves those He tosses into hell, making Him an ogre, or 2) no longer immutable. Which is it?
God's love is everlasting or it isn't. Which is it?
Brother Martin,
Is God's love everlasting? If yes, then He is loving them even after they are cast into hell.
Is God immutable? If yes, then God loves those who He knew were going to hell, and then on the day of Judgment do a complete 180 and pour His wrath out on them. This grossly mangles Romans 9.
Yes, God 'so loved the world', but that does not mean everybody who ever lived.
Is God's love everlasting? If yes, then He is loving them even after they are cast into hell.
Is God immutable? If yes, then God loves those who He knew were going to hell, and then on the day of Judgment do a complete 180 and pour His wrath out on them. This grossly mangles Romans 9.
Yes, God 'so loved the world', but that does not mean everybody who ever lived.
I believe that Calvinism has a "blind spot" on the Atonement of Jesus Christ, as they cannot seem to understand God's Heart on this all-important Doctrine. Unless you believe in the evil teaching that God predestines the lost to hell, before the foundation of the world, then it should not be too difficult to see that those who very sadly end up in hell, will do so because of their rejection of Jesus Christ. Listen to Jesus' own Words, the Holy Spirit came to "convict the world of sin" (John 16:8), that they are lost sinners and going to hell. Then Jesus goes on to say why, "in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me" (v.9), which says because they "do not believe" in Him , which is the same as rejecting Him, as the Jews did, which is much recorded in John's Gospel. Just because God loves the entire human race, from Adam till the end of time, does NOT mean that they will all be saved. No, God has certain conditions in place, like repentance, acceptance of Jesus Christ as the ONLY Saviour and Lord of their lives, etc. We know that the greater majority will not conform to God's Just demands. Romans 9 is another passage grossly misused by Calvinists. Notice what it actually says.
"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles"
The "vessels of wrath", it says, that God "endured with much longsuffering", why? If He had predestined them to hell, why should He be "longsuffering" towards them? Also, it does not say "He had prepared beforehand", as it does says for the "vessels of mercy". It is obvious that by their rejection of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they choose to go to hell. Note what Paul tells the Jews in Acts 13:46, "Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles." Do you see their OWN responsibility? It does NOT says that God judged them unworthy of eternal life, or that they could not believe because God had not chosen them?
To a certain extent, this falls upon all of us. None can know no more about Him than what He has revealed via His word, and even that seems to be hard. Both sides glean what they see of Him via His word.
I do not, and many who accuse us of this are flatly wrong. We see that God took out of the same lump a ppl to redeem by the Lamb of God. That is in Romans 9.
Again Brother, this is patently false. Those who reject the gospel are already condemned. Jesus said such in John 3:18.
As I mentioned earlier, that Gideon speaker said that in India alone, there are 1.3 BILLION ppl who have never heard of Christ. Those who die before hearing it are already condemned. They did not reject the gospel and still went to hell. Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and no one can come to the Father but through Me.[John 14:6] So, the only way to be saved is by God and the only way anyone can get to God is through Jesus. No Jesus, no way to the Father. It is that plain and simple.
Again, the Spirit works through the word of God. I already posted Romans 10:14-17, 1 Corinthians 1:18-21, Ephesians 1:13. How can the Spirit convict ppl who have never heard of Jesus?
Fallen man can not meet those requirements, but Christ did for His ppl. Faith, repentance and conversion are all gifts of God. If God has conditions to be met, then it can't be called the finished works of Christ, because it takes God and man to reach an agreement to be saved. That's works.
Uhhhh, they can not conform to it, that is why Christ had to die in their stead. Christ bore their sin and guilt in their(our) stead.
Yeah....riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!!!
I only did a several month study on Romans. By God's grace, I understand it just fine.
God is being patient with the vessels of wrath until the last vessel of mercy is saved. That is why He has not dispatched Jesus to get His bride.
Brother Martin,
Before this goes any further, those who die before hearing the gospel...
1) Does the Spirit convict them of their sins?
2) Does the Spirit draw them to God?
3) How could they have been saved if they never heard the gospel?
I want you to answer these please so we can further this discussion.
Before this goes any further, those who die before hearing the gospel...
1) Does the Spirit convict them of their sins?
2) Does the Spirit draw them to God?
3) How could they have been saved if they never heard the gospel?
I want you to answer these please so we can further this discussion.
As I said I do not claim to be a calvinist, I have however never come across that statement that he taught a universal atonement. Can you document that Martin?
Thanks
HankD
Notice how "the things" becomes "all the things" despite the context teaching spiritual meat and not spiritual milk is in view. The natural man cannot know spiritual meat because he/she has no indwelt holy spirit, as their helper. OTOH, 1 Corinthians 3:1, Paul speaks to those who have not matured as to "men of flesh." Therefore "men of flesh" can understand spiritual milk.
I have just started another thread on this
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