James by the way has a nice one, that is where got the idea. I am in the process of answering them. Actually I agree with them, just don't find that they contradict what I believe and do not pt to man totally unable to respond.
It seems Me4Him has answered most of them though.
[ February 23, 2006, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Timtoolman ]
Total Depravity
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Timtoolman, Feb 22, 2006.
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Man doesn't lack faculties... I think was the way it was put.
That is one reason I don't like the word "inability". It implies that God has limited the person or is the cause of that limitation- He isn't. -
Man doesn't lack faculties... I think was the way it was put.
That is one reason I don't like the word "inability". It implies that God has limited the person or is the cause of that limitation- He isn't. </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah I read that Scott but I didn't concentrate on it because it was a qoute from someone and not scripture. I am haveing a hard time keeping up. I am on my third time right now reading through this thread.
If depravity is shown to not be total inability then I would think thay you would have to agree that if man does not have inablility, then he can be saved without the other pts of UconE and Irrs. Grace?
Unless I miss understand isn't he saying that total corrpution is or makes total inability. We are back to step one. Does depravity mean total unability. Has it infected every part of man but yet not destroyed all. It seems like it is saying what it just spent 4 paragraphs to not say? -
Man doesn't lack faculties... I think was the way it was put.
That is one reason I don't like the word "inability". It implies that God has limited the person or is the cause of that limitation- He isn't. </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah I read that Scott but I didn't concentrate on it because it was a qoute from someone and not scripture.</font>[/QUOTE] It was an explanation of man's condition as given in scripture by a very wise and understanding theologian. If you want to know what we believe rather than continuing to argue against things we don't believe- you have to pay more attention to explanations like this.
Man won't (as in "will" not) because he has no motive within him that is "good". So while he "may" at any time, he never "will" until God regenerates his spirit giving him a new will with which to choose good.
It is man's will that is so corrupted by sin that he cannot make any "good" contribution to his own salvation... to include a "good" decision, until God performs the miracle of regeneration upon him. -
God elected them. He regenerates them. He quickens their dead spirit... opens their blinded eyes... gives them ears to hear. Repeatedly, God gives Himself credit for the difference.
NO.
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Scott, to me they are as plain as day. Let me ask you this. You saying that man is not unable but is unwilling, yet we see several things in scripture that says otherwise.
Why did Paul so often "reason" with the jews from scriptures to PROVE that Jesus was the Messiah? Acts 17:2-4 Why did he attempt to "persusde men" (2 cor 5:11) and beg people to be "reconicled to God"?(2Cor 5:20) Why do we read in Acts 28:24 (as Paul reasoned with the jews about Jesus)"And some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe" Why did Paul write "I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some" (1Cor 9:22) And Why did he write that the Jews hindered him from "speaking to the Gentiles THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. (1 Thes. 2:16)?
Apparently Paul believed that what he said and did affected the results of his evangelism, becasue people's wills played a part in their salvation. Again, a preacher's attempt to persuade and unregnerate mand would be an admission that plays a part in his repentance, and it would be (calvinist) an affront to God's sovereignty- if no man can be saved apart from God's irresistible grace. In fact it seems Paul did not believe in total depravity or irresistiable grace or he was going against the word of God by trying to persuade men. And he was misleading them into thinking they could repent! Better yet could not a calvinist prove beyond a doubt Irr. Grace by reading the newspaper and seeing how many are saved? It seems that that "persuasive preaching" would be an affront to God as that is man's work and thus not solely of God? -
Bottom line: God must be the instigator of anything that is genuinely "good"... while man has plenty of capacity all on his own to do evil.
This is why I say that calvinism is the best explanation I have found. It allows all of scripture to be true. It doesn't create the contradictions that are necessitated by systems that exalt man's will and choice to the position of "cooperating/contributing" to individual salvation in a primary way.
It is God's sovereignty that provides the messenger... it is God's sovereignty that sees to the fertility of the ground to which the seed is being spread. -
Scott, I don't think it contradicts Paul's teaching at all. I think that it contadicts calvni'st defining of depravity. This all went right over your head. It appears you are not even ttying to comprehend that pt.
If salvation is supposedly a sovereign act of God who bestows on some people His irresistible grace, why don't (and you convently meissed or did not comment on this part) calvinist simply stand in front of unregenerate audiences and recite nursery rhymes? Then they could prove the truth of their doctrine of irresistable grace as people are sovereignly born again. Yet I notice that calvinist try to appeal to minds and hearts of their hearers in order to persuade them to repent and believe, something their audiences, by definition CAN'T do unless God sovereignly regenerates them. Even the preaching of calvinist contradicts what they say.
If Calvnist are consistant with their theology, what is the gospel that they should proclaim? Should they decieve their audiences, calling on them to repent (like the Bible)and believe in Jesus Christ, misleading them into thinking that they CAN DO SOMETHING in regards to their salvation, thus strengthing their listner's pride and increasing their spiritual darkness? Or should they not tell them the truth...that they are so depraved that they are incapable of submitting to God, and unless God shows them irr. Grace, they can never be saved? How does faith come from hearing that? rom 10:17 Obvioulsy such a "gospel" leaves nothing for the hearer to cling to in faith.
How can a man believe that unregenerate man will always use his freedom to resist God. Imagine a man who is an adulter. His God given counscience condemns him continually (rom2:15), but he continues in his adulterous relationship. Thus he is using his freedom to resist God, which you say is all he can do or will do since he is totally depraved Now he breaks off his adulterous relationship due to guilt. Now can it still be said that he has only used his freedom to resist God?. NO he used his freedom to repent of adultery, and yeilded to hs God given conscience.If he can use his freedom to do that why can't he with the help of he HS repent of a lifestyle of rebellion and humble himself before God?
Calvnist clearly add to what scriptures state regarding human depravity and God's grace. Unregenerated people are dead in their sins and trespasses, hundreds, if not thousands, of scriptures clearly state that or imply that spiritually dead people can choose to humble thmeselves and repent, especially while they are under the influence of the gracious drawing of the HS. God's drawing however never forces anyone to repent, nor does it change anyone's will apart from the consent of his heart.
yes Scott although scripture repeatedly decries the sinful state of humnanity, at the same time it calls on all people to repent. Acts17:30 If Paul believed that people were so depraved that they had no capacity to repent, he would not have said tht God was calling ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE to repent. Unless he was a deciever. Even more so if it is impossible for spiritually dead people to repent, God would be unrighteous to expect all of them to do what they are incapable of doing and then hold them guilty for not doing it.
Paul, John, Jesus and all the apostles preached the gospel, calling on ALL people to repent.
Mat 3:2 4:17 11:20
Mark 6:12
Luke 5:32 13:3,5 24:27
acts 2:38 3:19 5:31 11:18 20:21
Rom 2:4 II Pet3:9
Several times in the book of Rev John is amazed that unregenate people don't repent while suffereing God's judgement. (Did not John realize the total depravity of man? It seems God has not taught him that) In Chorazin and Bethsaida Jesus pronounced woe upon all the people becasue they didn't repent. Mtt 11:21. He also declared the wicked people of Tyre and Sidon , who didn't repent would have if they had seen the miracles like the people of Chorizin and Bethsaida had seen. In both cases , jesus believed that thos who didn't repent had the capacity to repent and SHOULD have repented, in contrast to calvinst who beleive unregenated people have no capacity to repent out of God changeing their wills and forceing them to repent, which He only does for some.
enough for now. Time to get back to work. -
Paul wrote those things. He also wrote Romans 8 which describes individual salvation from eternity past to eternity future with a screaming absence of any reference or dependence on man's will or choice. These things must be reconciled in a way that does harm to neither scripture nor introduces a contradiction.
Plain and simple- man is responsible for sin. God's "goodness leadeth thee to repentance."
The contradictions exist only in your mind.
They can and should do something... but won't until God performs a miracle in their lives.
On the second part you are simply wrong.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Lead in every sense that I am aware of means to go first... to be primary... to be the motive or cause.
Now that is a totally separate issue for why some are saved. We are not saved for the same reason or for the opposite reason of why people are lost.
People are condemned because they deserve it even after God graciously reveals Himself to them. People are saved in spite of the fact that they don't deserve it even after God graciously reveals Himself to them.
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I think the problem you're having understanding why this doesn't disprove or conflict with election is because you're seeing things as an either/or. Either God does it all, or man has a part in it.
The reality is that God does it all, sometimes by using man as part of the process. Paul attempted to persuade men, and if God opens the ears of one of the listeners, Paul's persuasion will be effective. If God does not open the ears of any of the listeners, then Pauls efforts will produce nothing. But does Paul know God's intent? Of course not. So Paul must do what we are commanded to do also -- spread the Gospel. God determines who actually *hears* the Gospel.
That's why Acts 13:48 says, "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."
Paul and Barnabas preached to EVERYONE. EVERYONE HEARD THE WORDS of what was preached. But only those who were appointed for eternal life actually "had ears to hear" and believed.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes by] the utterance of God. I say "utterance" because the Greek word is rhema, not logos -- which makes me think the verse would be more accurately translated in today's colloquial English as "Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes when God says so." -
Well it seems we are in agreemetnt then, Scott.
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Originally posted by Timtoolman:
If recieving a gift is a work of man I thought he would see preaching by men was also. My mistake.Click to expand...
Whether or not receiving a gift is a work of man depends on how he receives it. If I hand you $100, then you have to do "a work" to take it because I'm leaving it up to you whether or not you accept the gift. If I deposit $100 into your bank account, you get the gift and do absolutely nothing to receive it.
IMO, neither example illustrates how salvation works. But in the former example, man must decide whether or not to accept the gift, then reach out and take it.
If you believe salvation works that way, it leads to the question: Who makes one man differ from another that one would decide to receive the gift and reach out and take it, and another decides to reject it and refuse to take it?
If man makes the difference, then man must have the glory. But the Bible says that it is God who makes one differ from another. -
Originally posted by npetreley:
Who makes one man differ from another that one would decide to receive the gift and reach out and take it, and another decides to reject it and refuse to take it?
If man makes the difference, then man must have the glory. But the Bible says that it is God who makes one differ from another. [/QB]Click to expand...
Does God sin???
Faith is all God requires from us, Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law, death for sin, to "Redeem" us from being under that law.
"FAITH" won't pay the "wages of sin".
Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Evidently, the fall wasn't as far as most believe, "GOOD" is still known as much as "EVIL".
The fall wasn't "TOTAL".
"AS GODS" we're "FREE" to chose between the "Good/Evil", just like any other "god".
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? -
Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
Who makes one man differ from another that one would decide to receive the gift and reach out and take it, and another decides to reject it and refuse to take it?
If man makes the difference, then man must have the glory. But the Bible says that it is God who makes one differ from another.Click to expand...
Indeed, salvation by free will choice makes God a respecter of persons, because in that view God only chooses those who are "good enough" to make the right decision. -
Indeed, salvation by free will choice makes God a respecter of persons, because in that view God only chooses those who are "good enough" to make the right decision.Click to expand...
God makes the rules. Believe = eternal life, don't believe = eternal separation. If the "rules" are laid out in front of the whole world, there is no way God is a respector of persons for choosing those "in Christ". -
Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Indeed, salvation by free will choice makes God a respecter of persons, because in that view God only chooses those who are "good enough" to make the right decision.Click to expand...
God makes the rules. Believe = eternal life, don't believe = eternal separation. If the "rules" are laid out in front of the whole world, there is no way God is a respector of persons for choosing those "in Christ".Click to expand... -
We've been around this block before. Your claims of good decision as "works" cannot be substantiated as fact.
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Oh for heaven's sake... I have given you the very definition of work to prove it. To deny that the process leading to a decision is mental work is to deny the very definition of the word.
But if you somehow got past that... you still couldn't deny that the man had provided the critical difference in his own salvation that separates him from those who remain lost- a good decision. -
Tim,
I really enjoyed reading your comments. I compile some neat ones below:
The Total Inability passed to us makes it impossible for us to comply with the command to believe in Christ. The most obvious fault with this doctrine is that it makes the gospel an unreasonable demand. How can God, who is perfectly just, "command all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30), knowing the command is impossible to obey?
They [Calvinists] will often assert that a command does not necessarily imply the ability to keep it. But the statement is certainly not self-evident. If God gives a command and threatens to punish as responsible agents those who do not comply, it certainly does imply the ability to obey.
Man is so corrupt, he will not and cannot obey even the slightest spiritual command - nor can he appreciate or even understand it. Yet, God orders him to believe; He punishes him for not believing. As Judge of the Universe, he justly condemns the sinner for not doing what he from birth cannot do. This seems to many of us to be at loggerheads with God's revealed character.
The Old Testament demands never seemed to be presented as impossibilities for the hearers. Moses said, "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach" (Deut. 30:11).
Joshua urged the Israelites, "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord" (Josh. 24:15). There is nothing in Joshua's entreaty that suggests the Israelites were all unable to choose the Lord unless they first experienced an inward miracle.
On the day of Pentecost, Peter preached before thousands who had gathered in Jerusalem. Luke writes, "With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, 'Save yourselves from this corrupt generation'" (Acts 2:40). Was Peter "pleading" with these people to do something they were impotent to do? He certainly gives no hint of it. Furthermore, Peter's admonition "save yourselves" would probably be viewed as less than orthodox by many Calvinists.
We read in Mark 4:11,12 that he spoke in parables as a judgment against the obstinate Jews. The purpose of parables was to keep his message from entering their ears, "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven" (v.12). Had those stiff-necked people been allowed to hear the truth straight out, they might have turned to receive it. But how? Calvinism tells us that no one can turn and receive the forgiveness of sins because of Total Inability passed from Adam. There must first be an inward miracle of the heart, an "effectual call."
Jesus sometimes "marvelled" at the unbelief of his hearers (Mark 6:6). But if he subscribed to and taught Total Inability, it would have been no marvel at all that men would disbelieve God.
In Romans 1, Paul writes of men who are "without excuse" because of the manifest presence of God in the creation. He says, "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened" (Rom. 1:21). Here we see men who became futile in their thinking and were given over to a darkened state of the heart. The apostle is not speaking of a condition of birth, but a judgment that came upon them because of willful refusal to acknowledge the Creator.
There is no denying that all people are born with sinful tendencies and are apt to go astray. This can be established by Scripture and experience. But it is one thing to say that all men have such tendencies and quite another that they are unable to respond to God. General human sinfulness differs from Total Inability.Click to expand...
Thx,
FA
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