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Featured Totally Depraved Cornelius

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by utilyan, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Acts 10

    1Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. 3About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” 4And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5“Now dispatch some men to Joppa and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter; 6he is staying with a tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea.” 7When the angel who was speaking to him had left, he summoned two of his servants and a devout soldier of those who were his personal attendants, 8and after he had explained everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.


    Acts 10

    24On the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” 27As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled. 28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. 29“That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me.”

    30Cornelius said, “Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining garments, 31and he said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32‘Therefore send to Joppa and invite Simon, who is also called Peter, to come to you; he is staying at the house of Simon the tanner by the sea.’ 33“So I sent for you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.”


    The issue here is all righteousness is filthy rags, No one seeks after God, no one is righteous, unregenerate etc.

    Yet here we pretty much have pagan Cornelius a righteous centurion who pleased and seeks God.

    He is unregenerate, has no idea of Jesus, has not heard the gospel. He Worships Peter as a god.


    The point of it all?

    Acts 10:34

    34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
    “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

    Yet what you are taught is it has nothing to do with who fears him or does what is right, Those things don't matter. God simply chooses and drags the unwilling person.
     
  2. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Methinks this passage shows Cornelius had a few kinks to be worked out by God as did Peter who had the Holy Spirit indwelt.

    As do myself and thee, I'm pretty sure.
     
  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I wonder when all the kinks will be worked out?

    Romans 7:24 comes to mind as one answer.
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So you deny any prior Jewish influence on Cornelius. How do you know this?

    ". . . of good report among all the nation of the Jews, . . ."
     
  5. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Active Member

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    You have a problem here. Where in the passage does it say he pleased God? And from the passage it is pretty obvious God was calling Cornelius. It was God who brought Cornelius to faith by his drawing.

    You might want to do some study on what the term fearing God means in this passage. It meant he had converted to Judaism. And yes, God chooses and draws the naturally unwilling person by changing their desire, it is a forceful change, not a passive one.
     
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  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Cornelius was a 'God-fearer' or 'God-worshipper;' that is, a gentile who had given up on the pagan religions and attended the synagogue (c.f. Acts 13:16; 16:14; 17:17) . He would not be classed as a convert to Judaism, like the Ethiopean eunuch and would not have been circumcised, but there he was, a keen supporter of the synagogue, led to do all sorts of good deeds, but someone who had never heard of Jesus. His good deeds were like filthy rags and he did not know the true God and father of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    And that is how it would have stayed except for the monergistic activity of God. Cornelius does not go out looking for someone to preach Christ to him; God Himself, who had set His love upon Cornelius from before the foundation of the world, brought someone to him to preach the good news. Praise His name!
     
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  7. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Active Member

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    Correct, it was like a half-convert. Following certain tenents and practices of the religion.
     
  8. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Still, you would agree that he wasn't seeking God or anything remotely like that...
     
  9. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "You have a problem here. Where in the passage does it say he pleased God?

    You might want to do study on the term memorial.

    4And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.


    "And from the passage it is pretty obvious God was calling Cornelius. It was God who brought Cornelius to faith by his drawing."

    Nope. Cornelius is not regenerated, Not a believer, even worships Peter, God didn't draw that. He does not have the holy spirit.




    And we got good details


    Acts 11

    13“And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15“And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16“And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”



    Tell us what the scripture says folks don't butcher it.


    Remember faith comes by hearing, He didn't hear anything. Remember REGENERATION comes by hearing. He didn't hear anything. Without any regeneration he has no capacity to respond to God in any favorable way.



    The idea that Cornelius is a practicing Jew defeats the purpose of gentile conversions. Jews don't worship Peter.

    What you have here is a unbeliever who is pleasing to God.
     
    #9 utilyan, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  10. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Active Member

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    Regeneration and faith are not the same thing.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    NONE before salvation and receiving Christ as Lord and the Holy Spirit would be right before Holy God!
     
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  12. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Well maybe you can straighten that out for me, so correct me if this is not your position. There's alot of elect folks out there with different ideas. So give us your take on the Ordo Salutis.

    Regeneration precedes Faith.

    The only way regeneration takes place is after one has heard the gospel.

    Maybe you can walk me through the steps. Tell me when the holy spirit shows up, when faith shows up, when regeneration shows ups, when hearing the gospel shows up.

    "If there’s one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase, regeneration precedes faith." --R C Sproul

    "Regeneration is part of what God does for us at the moment of salvation, along with sealing (Ephesians 1:14), adoption (Galatians 4:5), reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18–20), etc. Regeneration is God’s making a person spiritually alive, as a result of faith in Jesus Christ." --Wayne Grudem



    "It is the act of God whereby He renews the spiritual condition of a sinner. It is a spiritual change brought about by the work of the Holy Spirit so that the person then possesses new life--eternal life. Regeneration is a change in our moral and spiritual nature where justification is a change in our relationship with God. Also, sanctification is the work of God in us to make us more like Jesus. Regeneration is the beginning of that change. It means to be born again." Matt Slick, Carm website.

    1. Election - God's choice of people to save. This choice occurred before the foundation of the world.
    2. Predestination - God's The work of God to ordain to salvation those who have been elected to it.
    3. Calling - The preaching of the gospel message.
    4. Regeneration - The change in the person produced by God.
    5. Faith - The trust an individual has in the work of God on the cross.
    6. Repentance - Turning from sin.
    7. Justification - The imputation of righteousness to the individual bus making him righteous according to the law.
    8. Sanctification - God's work in the individual to make him more like Christ.
    9. Perseverance - God's work in the individual results in the person continually believing throughout his life.
    10. Glorification - Resurrection to glory with God.
     
  13. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Get ready for the catch-all Calvinist answer, "It's a mystery."
     
  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Acts 10

    22They said, “Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you.”

    Maybe he had a "diet-righteousness"? We know how predispositions love to add adjectives when the round pegs don't fit the square holes.
     
  15. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    This is typically a Calvinist Stumper. He is not a believer of Jesus Christ. Cornelius doesn't know what is going on, he even worships Peter, Peter corrects him thats great.

    Yet this guy SEEKS GOD, is RIGHTEOUS, And GOD is PLEASED by his prayers and alms giving. He gives to the poor..



    See Scripture is not the highest authority. The highest authority is TULIP, Doctrines of Grace, and Calvinist Tradition.

    You have to find what the tradition of Calvinism believes on the scripture instead of just believing the scripture. You cannot merely accept what happens with Cornelius as is or as Peter concludes as to what is happening.

    Acts 10

    34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
    "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.


    That is not what happens with Calvinism. Calvinism NEVER welcomes the man who fears God or does what is right. It only randomly welcomes one who is totally depraved into the capacity to fear and do what is right.

    You can't get WELCOMED unless your a stranger to it. You can't get welcomed if your elect prior in time, whenever you were elect thats when your clearly welcomed.



    Like when Jesus calls for a baby child and say you should be like this child, He might as well had a 40 year old in his lap, whats the difference in quality?

    No you must IGNORE CHRIST, IGNORE PETER. You are required to follow the tradition of Calvinism which is the highest authority.
     
  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    IT'S A MYSTERY - Oh wait I'm not a Calvinist.
     
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  17. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Active Member

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    Again, where does this say he is righteous? What translation are you using? The word is δίκαιος. It means to be in accordance with high standards (BDAG). One who upholds customs and norms of social behavior. This in no way signals that he was righteous before God.

    This is not a stumper, you are reading things into the text that are not there.

    Where is he seeking God? God sought him by sending an angel. Gives to the poor? What does that have to do with anything? Again, it never says he is righteous before God, you read that into the text because you don't actually study the words underlying the text.

    No, the problem is you are not carefully and critically reading the text. You are skimming the surface and not actually digging in. You are not using good hermeneutics.
     
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  18. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "The word is δίκαιος. It means to be in accordance with high standards "

    We can play this game.

    Οὐκ ἔστιν δίκαιος οὐδὲ εἷς

    ^ THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN

    Or should I say THERE IS NONE in accordance with high standards NOT EVEN ONE ?


    Was that bad Hermaneutics? are you kidding me?



    The exact same word. You are putting in YOUR PHILOSOPHY.

    The Calvinist TRADITION is the highest authority, not scripture.

    What would it have to say to mean what we say it means!?

    You are not defending the scriptures, You are defending the Calvinist tradition first.

    Is our position so remotely unreasonable?


    "This is not a stumper, you are reading things into the text that are not there."

    Example please. Show me.




    "Where is he seeking God? God sought him by sending an angel. Gives to the poor? What does that have to do with anything?"

    Yes he prays to God continuously. What does it have to do with anything?

    It has to do with " the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. "


    Acts 10

    34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
    "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.


    I don't have to chop anything up. I'm just telling you what the scripture SAYS. All you do is tell us what your Calvinist tradition says.

    Is it RIGHT to seek God?



    So much for Monergism, is God so incompetent an author of we need your help in his communicating to us?
     
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  19. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Here are the Calvinist objections, rebuttals, explanations, or whatever you want to call it for anything that contradicts their theology:

    1. "You're taking the verse out of context."
    2. "That word actually means something else."
    3. "That verse is directed at someone else."

    When these objections don't work, don't apply, or can't be defended, then the excuse used is:

    4. "It's a mystery."
     
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  20. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Active Member

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    Yes it was bad. Words have different senses in different contexts.


    If it means what you say it means you have a major problem with Romans 3:10. You have to look at all of Scripture and not just cherry-pick verses. So yes, bad hermeneutics.
     
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