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Transgendered Member?

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by TeslaTrav, Nov 30, 2019 at 9:29 AM.

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  1. TeslaTrav

    TeslaTrav New Member

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    So, at our SBC church (in a college town) we have a young man (who has had gender reassignment surgery to now look like a woman and have her parts) that has been coming to our college group for a few years now. The individual is graduating this Dec and will likely move to a different class. The person has come forward (2 yrs ago, and made a profession of faith). The person believes that their actions were sinful, but considers it done (kinda like a person who has divorced and remarried). The individual also can not afford re-reassignment surgery to go back to looking like a male again.

    Few know this person had gender reassignment surgery and he is a very convincing and even somewhat pretty looking female... Which creates a whole other issue when you see youth boys fawning over this person (which this person does ignore). Further, the individual considers themselves “a-sexual” or planning to live a life of celibacy (probably because they’ve destroyed their natural hormones/sex drive).

    I believe this person has accepted Christ and wants to serve Him. Would you require surgery before joining?
     
    #1 TeslaTrav, Nov 30, 2019 at 9:29 AM
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019 at 9:42 AM
  2. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    That fact that he still tries to pass himself off as female shows his "regret" is a scam. I'm sure he's fishing for something.

    Most women can pretty easily pass themselves off as male, so why would someone actually born a male have any difficulty? He's still a he, just with some superficial tweaks to make it easier to pass as a female.
     
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  3. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Well-Known Member
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    Would I require him to reverse his surgery before he could join my church??? Good gravy, no!

    • Do we require fat people to lose 40 -50 pounds before they can join our church?
    • Do we require those who have struggled with drugs to take a urine test before they enter the sanctuary each Sunday?
    • Do we require anyone to prove physical/spiritual perfection before they join?
    He isn't going to be able to reverse the surgery. He isn't going to get his private parts back - I'm assuming he did have them removed as transgender women [former men] do that. If they just "live" as women, sometimes they don't. He can stop the hormone treatments and gain back a slightly more masculine look, but it won't be what it was before. And something else to consider, if he did stop the female hormone treatments, his sex drive is going to skyrocket back to normal. His decision to remain "asexual" may start wavering and yet he has no private parts.

    There are far too many "what- ifs" to declare a definitive "He must do this or that" to join my church.

    Granted - he is in a mess. A hot mess. But let's assume that his profession of faith two years ago was genuine.

    I say let him join the church. But I would say this. He has butchered his body, both in the flesh and in the endocrine system. He needs to remain asexual. But he needs to decide how he will live. As the convincing woman he is now - with no romantic relationship with anyone. Or the unconvincing man he reverts back to - and he will not be able to have a relationship with any woman unless she agrees to a sexless marriage with a man who doesn't really look like a man.

    This man needs Godly friends - brothers and sisters in Christ. Not hate and judgment and scorn.
     
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  4. TeslaTrav

    TeslaTrav New Member

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    It would be difficult with the augmentation to pass for a male. The person had said they wouldn’t have done gender surgery again. I believe it is the truth.

    This is someone seeking genuine council. I believe I could convince them to have surgery again, but obviously money is an issue for them. Parents were supportive/encouraging of the decision but are not of this person choosing to become a Christian.

    the question is, what to do about the immediate issue?
     
  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I was not going to comment on this thread but since this sort of thing will become more prevalent it is important for churches to respond to it properly. If this gentleman has actually made a credible profession of faith, it is important that he takes proper steps that will not only guard his conscience but the conscience of others in the church. He cannot under any circumstances dress or assume the identity of a woman. He is not a female. Obviously there is one physical attribute (that requires implants) he probably possesses that gives the impression he is a female. Unless he is willing to have those implants removed he will have to live with that situation. If it is a matter of cost, perhaps he can save his money or his family or church may be willing to bless him financially. The reason he cannot dress or assume the identity of a woman is the confusion it will cause in the body, especially to impressionable young people. He can immediately start dressing like the man that he is. There are consequences to all sins. Unfortunately, for this gentleman, his specific sin has a unique set of consequences that all can see. He needs the love and unwavering support of his local church. Part of that love and support is to make a complete break from his sinful past. Yes. Things like restroom habits will be awkward and will require thought and planning. Depending on the grace God gives him, he may be able to develop a ministry to other individuals who are traveling the same road.
     
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  6. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    Apparently, he's still dressing as a woman and getting the boys to fawn over him (is he also a homosexual?). As long as he's dressing like a woman, he hasn't made a credible profession of faith, in spite of the dupes who take him at his word.

    A church that allows him to join won't have any ground to object when the next transgendered person comes along and wants to join, even one who doesn't claim to regret his decision. A church that allows him to join will be allowing sin to parade through their halls, bringing others to approve of such sin (and, forcing others to flee to a church that really does follow God).

    I wonder how he had the money for the full transitional surgery, but not the relativity little money to get a couple of implants removed. (Oh, wait, I don't believe him, so I don't wonder.) Maybe a Christian doctor can be found to remove the implants for free? Even with boobs, unless they're comically large, he could still credibly present himself as a man, as he really is. Just throw on a sports bra and a loose shirt.
     
  7. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    While I am skeptical I do not want to judge motives. I would rather err on the side of accepting his profession if accompanied by true repentance and a desire to obey God. If this scenario is, indeed true, I hope the pastor and elders are honoring their call to protect the sheep under their care.
     
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  8. TeslaTrav

    TeslaTrav New Member

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    I’m not sure he can pass himself off as a man. He is also concerned of what it’ll do to his life to go back to being a man. He has lived as a woman since a young teen (very liberal parents) and had surgery at 18 (paid for by said parents). He worries about his job, friends, etc because they all believe him to be a woman.

    He also has concerns that if he tried to live as a man without surgery he would end up looking like a grotesque monster (probably would).
     
  9. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    How odd that no one's yet brought up Scripture.
    The most germane is:

    Matthew 19:11-12
    But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

    Pastor Chelsea Erickson, teaching on this for The Gospel Coalition:

    The Gospel Coalition • Jesus on Eunuchs
     
    #9 Jerome, Nov 30, 2019 at 2:39 PM
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019 at 2:45 PM
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  10. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    He's a man dressing as a woman. Case closed.

    He could get the implants removed for under $2K.

    I wonder how attitudes would be different if were a skinhead covered with racist tattoos, and refused to cover them up or grow his hair out, but insists he regretted getting the tattoos.
     
  11. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I am not in disagreement with you over the fact he is a man dressing as a woman. I guess why I am trying to write charitably is that we only know so much on a message board. If this man steadfastly refuses to stop dressing like a woman, then I would not accept him into membership. Nor would I accept into membership a man/woman who is a known adulterer and refuses to repent. The attitude here is what is key. Romans 6:1-2 says, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" I am sure this man also has serious psychological problems. As our nation continues to slide into widespread perversion we will see more and more of this. How sad.
     
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  12. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Yes, I agree this man has made himself a eunuch (Matthew 19:11-12) and must accept and live with the consequences. Another relevant scripture is "Male and female created he them" (Genesis 5:2) and also "But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female" (Mark 10:6). This man has made himself a eunuch, but he has not made himself a female. To continue to live as a female is to live a lie. It is godly counsel to advise him of this. That doesn't mean things are going to be easy, but one must start at the truth over pretense.
     
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  13. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    His parents would pay for a sex change, but not to undo the sex change???????

    He's not told his friends, etc. that he was a man who transitioned to a woman? And, they don't know even though he has the bone structure of a man?

    Did he worry about his friends when he transitioned to a woman?

    There's a cost of following Jesus. Besides, if he really regrets what he's done then he's just prolonging his misery if he doesn't get it over with.
     
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  14. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Glad to see (some) are (finally) offering Scripture.

    May I ask why this thread was posted in our Fundamentalist Baptist section? Is the church Fundamentalist? (OP indicates it's a college-town SBC church), or are you just seeking wise, Biblical counsel on this?
     
  15. TeslaTrav

    TeslaTrav New Member

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    Shootsie, please start reading the posts. All your comments would be greatly aided by reading the posts that preceded it.
     
    #15 TeslaTrav, Nov 30, 2019 at 4:21 PM
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019 at 4:51 PM
  16. TeslaTrav

    TeslaTrav New Member

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    Just seeking biblical council. :)
     
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  17. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Consider passages such as Isaiah 5:20; Matthew 18:6; and James 4:17 (please read them).

    In short - the choices this man faces may be costly (financially as well as socially) and painful but with the love and support of a local church that is willing to come alongside him, he can endure. The difficulty of the choices he faces cannot override the truth that he is a male and must identify as such. @rlvaughn posted some pertinent scriptures that make this point and end any equivocation.
     
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  18. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    I've been studying Isaiah 56 and 58 this week (the outer portion of a chiasm).
    I was considering asking my class a similar question.
    To the early Jews, a eunuch was not accepted and "shall not enter the assembly of the Lord." (Deuteronomy 23:1–3).

    Then during the exile into Babylon a number of young Jews were forced into servitude and emasculated.
    What was to happen to these highly educated, devote Jews upon their return to Jerusalem?
    Isaiah gives them hope.

    Isaiah 56:3–5 (ESV)
    3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say, “The Lord will surely separate me from his people”; and let not the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.”
    4 For thus says the Lord: “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant,
    5 I will give in my house and within my walls a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off.​

    A transgender person is searching for identity.
    A saved transgender person finds their true identity in Christ... not in their sexuality.
    This is a time to celebrate, it's not a time to load an already burdened individual with further burdens.

    God has accepted them, so should the church.

    Sure the individual needs extensive counseling but I'd say the pastor should provide just as much sermonic counseling to the whole congregation (is that a word?).

    A church that rejects such a believer is just going through the motions of worshiping God.

    Rob
     
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  19. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    Did God tell you that he accepted that transvestite? Has God broken his own word,
    Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

    I think the transvestite is running a scam. But, even if he really does wish to be a part of the church, he reminds me of the rich man who asked Jesus what he must do, and Jesus told him to sell everything he had. He walked away sad because he didn't want to give up his wealth.

    "Eunuch" doesn't mean crossdresser. A pastor who would equate the two is incompetent.
     
  20. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Was this person saved AFTER the gender-bender? If so, we must remember that most pre-salvation sins cannot be undone. One cannot un-murder a victim. One cannot take back a hurtful word or action. Once the bomb is dropped, it cannot be recalled; it's gonna hit something.

    Remember Billy Graham's theme hymn, "Just as I am".
     
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