Trinity

Greetings Yeshua,

I suggest that you carefully review this thread and decide your own answer to the subject as a whole. I am sure you have already done this. By the way an interesting thing for you would be to look up "Syllogism" using wiki. The article shows that A=B, B=C does not always make A=C and similar concepts in logic. There are often missing details that alter this simplistic concept. I am not an expert in this type of logic, but one of my mentors gave extensive talks on Job, and he said that the three friends logic, and even Job's thoughts at first was based on this wrong logic:
Suffering is a result of sin, Job is suffering greatly, therefore Job is a great sinner.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

The lost have no ability to expound on the scriptures for they are spiritually discerned. This speaker apparently had not the Spirit of Christ, for he does not comprehend that Paul was an Apostle, who was not trying to find his way after encountering Jesus Christ on the road to Dammascus, but was preaching and teaching the very words of God day in and day out from day one of his rebirth.

Anyone can in many ways act like Jesus Christ, look at the JW's, but they are lost for they have not the Spirit of Christ. They reject there is a Spirit of Christ, and they teach another Jesus, another gospel. Paul's calls them accursed.

Paul makes it perfectly clear beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus Christ is God;

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness." (Romans 8:9-10)

1) Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ are Equal.

2) Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ are IN the born of God.

As Thomas said when he seen Jesus, "my Lord and my God".

 

Greetings again steaver,

I appreciate your response. It is evident that you consider the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ in the born of God differently to my understanding. Also you believe in the Trinity. I also accept that Paul had to develop after he was “apprehended” by Christ on the way to Damascus. I am not sure if you consider that all that are born of God have the Spirit of Christ in them in a full sense as you suggest with Paul. If this is your personal experience, then in comparison it is not my experience. Your assessment then is that I am one of the lost and preach a false gospel. I am willing to live with your assessment, but my trust and hope is in God and in His Son.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Being born-again is an event just as being born in the flesh is an event. It is not something that is progressing. Born of the Spirit is an event. Look at the verses I gave you, it is plain speech. You may not understand how these things can be, as Nicodemus could not understand, however it is plain speech throughout the scriptures. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God IN them it states, he is none of His. THis is why it is so important to know Jesus Christ is in you, and this is why I pressed you for the answer. No Spirit of Christ/God in you, no salvation.

Having the Spirit of CHrist is NOT simply memmicking Jesus Christ. It is CHrist in you, transforming you from the inside out, a new creation, born-again, born of God, Eternal life in you!

The JW's claim Jesus is the Son of God, so do the Mormons, so do the KKK for that matter. But ye MUST be born-again. Do not be deceived.

Tell me Trevor, why is it important to you that you do not see Jesus as God?

 

God the father called Himself the ONLY true God/ONLY Saviour
peter called Jesus our Great GOD and SAVIOUR
The Holy Spirit attested to by Jesus as being God, as Peter and paul did Also

So unles you call them all liars, all 3 are equally God, Father/Son/Spirit!

 

Greetings again Yeshua1 and steaver,

I am not sure if you are quoting from the prayer that Jesus offered unto God the Father, but this seems a bit different to what you are saying:
John 17:1-3 (KJV): 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jesus does not say here, “We are the only true God”. He addresses His Father as the Only True God. Jesus Christ is a separate being whom God the Father sent to be Saviour. Jesus in this context is not the only true God. My comments to steaver at the end of this post concerning Jesus being God may also apply to your comments.

I have almost asked on a number of occasions of what your being born-again experience is like. Not only when you first experienced this, but also what is it like on a day to day basis. Do you have a third voice in your mind, the first the carnal mind of lusts, the moderating spiritual mind or conscience, and then a third mind the Holy Spirit or Spirit of Christ speaking directly to you out loud, like the voice of inspiration to the prophets of old?

For my part I do not have a third voice, well not to my knowledge at least. I do believe in the hand of God in our lives in many ways. I look back on my pilgrimage as being a gradual growth, with the occasional decline and then a fresh impetus. There have been many memorable things to look back on as treasures that have helped. Concerning the subject we are discussing, I was first introduced to the future aspect of the Yahweh Name at a Young People’s weekend, and my understanding has grown on this subject over the years. I remember the weekend well, because it was when I started to go with my future wife.

I quoted a short extract from a 1948 talk on the conversion and growth of Paul. You did not agree with that excerpt. Although what he stated was not profound, this set of talks represented a boost of encouragement in my life at a time when I was at a bit of a low. He gave a series of six talks on Acts and the fifth was the conversion of Paul and the address in Acts 13, which the speaker suggested that this is coupled to the Letter to Galatians. He expounded not only Galatians 1:16, but also Galatians 2:20, claiming that Paul manifested by his way of life and example to the Galatians his identification with the crucifixion of Christ. The motivating power in Paul’s life was the love that Christ had shown him personally, “loved me and gave himself for me”.

This almost sounds like guilt by association. I disagree with the JW’s and Mormon view on this subject, and you’ve got the wrong country as we used to have bushrangers and convicts, not KKK.

I suggest that there are many references in the NT where Jesus is referred to as being the Son of God, and there are only a few that refer to him as God. Could I ask: Of the two titles or descriptions, what one is the greater title with respect to Jesus? I will give you my answer, and we will compare. The greater of the two titles as far as Jesus is concerned is The Son of God.

Now let me explain. Thomas addressed Jesus as God, but immediately after John summarised why he wrote his account of the life of Jesus:
John 20:28-31 (KJV): 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Could I suggest that Thomas’ use of the title or status “God” is not the same as used by those who believe the Trinity, but is in the same sense as used in John 10:30-36, and in numerous OT passages, where judges and angels represented God. John the Apostle on the other hand uses the greater title describing fully Jesus’ status by birth, by character and by resurrection as “The Christ and The Son of God”.

Yes, steaver and Yeshua1, I believe that Jesus is God and The Son of God. These are Biblical terms and for my explanation of this please refer to Post #119 where I have attempted to explain “a Hebrew idiom, but it is more than this. It is a special Divine choice of words in the Hebrew language to convey an important concept”. A clear definition in our most often used English terms today, is that there is One God the Father, and Jesus is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

again, you err by not understanding the trinity!

Jesus could state while on the earth, and divested of his "glory" that His afther was greater than Him, and he called the father My God, but notice that Jesus NEVER put His relationship as same as ours, for it is My God and Your God, as he is Gon by nature, while we are only adopted sons of God!

 

Greetings again Yeshua1,

Yes, I do not understand the Trinity, and of what I can absorb from the various explanations and Creeds I disagree with. I claim that the Trinity in not taught in the Scriptures of truth. I agree that Jesus was by birth The Son of God, and thus he is the only one that could address God as “my Father”. Jesus had Mary as his mother and God the Father as His Father. Yes we are only adopted sons. When born Jesus was human nature. Notice Paul’s repeated emphasis:
Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
1 John 4:1-3 (KJV): 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Everyone's "experience" will be different in some ways, however, when the Spirit of Jesus Christ enters a person they become aware or sensitive to the things of God. Yes, I have heard the voice of the Holy Spirit guide me. Sometimes this is subtle nudgings, sometimes this is sudden and audiable within the mind, with my experience it was a voice which cut off all of what I was thinking and invaded my mind with an answer while in prayer.

But the only real test that I have found in agreement with the scriptures which can explain the personal knowledge one has that they have been born again is found in Romans 8.

After Paul explains that Jesus Christ is in you else you are none of His, and Paul explains that this Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God (8:9) he then describes the person who has the Spirit of God/Jesus Christ in them...

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (8:15-16)

This is why Thomas cried out "my Lord and my God".

Notice the Spirit is received. The Spirit is in the born of God. You cannot escape these truths. One must receive Jesus Christ...

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

Can you see this Trevor? Can you see from the scripture that one must receive Jesus Christ, one must receive the Spirit of Christ, one must receive the Spirit of God, one must have the Spirit IN them. This is born of God!

 

To be really saved, a Christian, one MUST have the Holy spirit in them, but ONLY those who call Jesus Lord, know Him as equal to Yaheh of the OT scriptures have the real Jesus in order to be saved!

 

Greetings again steaver,

I appreciate your response and I can almost understand your view. I do believe in God’s providential guidance and answer to prayers. But my primary understanding of the Spirit of Christ within us is by means of the word of God and faith and the transforming influence of this in our lives. I have encountered some people who claim to have the Spirit, and with that claim they suggest that they do not need the word of God. I would suggest that I am on the other end of the scale. I would in some instances define spirit in the sense of the product of the Spirit, the source is from God, and the end product is a character that is like unto God and Jesus Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

But Trevor, it's what the Word of God says. Shouldn't you adjust your thinking to God's Word and not go out of the way to make it say something it does not through too much Hebrew and Greek analyzation? Don't you see how someone has lead you away from the plain and simple reading through manipulation of words?

I heard a statement once dirrected towards an atheist and it goes like this (not suggesting your are an atheist), "An atheist is a person who has been educated beyond their intelligence". This is not an insult, but a fact about some folks, they educate themselves right out of the intelligence God has given them to believe.

May I try one more passage of scripture and see what your Greek and Hebrew analysis does with it....

"[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (John 14)

The Spirit of Truth - What is Truth? The Word of God?

The Spirit of Truth is a person - "seeth him not" "know him" "he dwelleth with you" "and shall be in you".

Is it you cannot understand this? Or is there influences in your life which cause you to comply with them, rather than the Truth?

 

Greetings again steaver,

I appreciate the earnestness of your response here, but we both seem very much locked into our individual perspectives. Our recent posts on the Spirit of Christ within reminded me of what I had read many years ago concerning Martin Luther and his encounter with or different perspective to Thomas Munster on this subject. The following is from a book by Ronald Bainton, “Here I Stand – A Life of Martin Luther”:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Are BOTH jesus and the Holy spirit eternally God, of the same essense as god the father, whatever God is to be god, both of them have always been also?

 

Essentially what is Spirit? What is Holy?

My answer. Spirit is life. Existence.
Holy is perfectly, and totally good. Love.

Did Spirit the God create a man in his own image and take from the man a helper, woman?

Did Spirit the God beget within the woman taken from the man a Son who is holy? See Matt. 1:20 Greek interlinear. Was this Son subject to death? Did this Son die?

Before the man was created in the image of Spirit the God, did Spirit the God know he was going to beget a Son subject to death and therefore make a promise of the hope of eternal life, life in one's self, Spirit?

Did the Son prophesy, thus saith the LORD, that as the Father has life in himself so had he given for the Son to have life in himself. See John 5:26

If one was to die, from whence would that one be able to have life again?
John 5:21 For as the Father raises up the dead, and quickens.

Did God the Father raise his Son Jesus the Christ from the dead and quicken, giving him the promise made before time begin?
Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) 1 Cor. 15:45,46 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit. Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Is afterward speaking of the resurrection?

 

Trevor, it seems to me that you do not want to address John 14, how it says the Spirit will be, not only with you, but in you. And that Jesus addresses the Spirit as a person.

May I ask you another question? Do you expect to see God the Father one day?

The only way we will see God the Father is when we look upon Jesus Christ. The only way we will see the Holy Spirit is to look upon Jesus Christ. Jesus is the fulness of God (For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily - Col2:9) . God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

"Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?"

"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

"Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." (John14)

 

Greetings again steaver,

I do not have a problem with John 14 and John 16 that speak concerning the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, that was to come to the Apostles when Jesus ascended to heaven. You may disagree, but I believe that this was fulfilled with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. I do not believe it is speaking concerning a Spirit guidance or born again experience for all believers as I assess you are claiming. The Apostles especially received all the gifts of the Holy Spirit because of the great responsibility they were entrusted with. Others had gifts of healing, tongues etc. I do not believe the Holy Spirit gifts are active today, but were withdrawn when: 1. The early believers were grown into maturity, as Ephesians seems to indicate as the purpose of the gifts. 2. The written NT accounts of the life of Christ and the Epistles were complete or readily available. 3. God also withdrew the gifts when any Church moved away from the truth of the gospel.

I believe that during the 1000 year reign of Christ upon earth the faithful will be with Jesus. I do not know in any detail what will happen at the end of the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Not I, but the scripture disagrees with you;

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13)

"In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," (Eph 1:13)

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30)

"He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit." (1Th 4:8)

The operational gifts of the Holy Spirit is not the topic of this discussion, rather, is the Holy Spirit God?, and is God indwelling the believer?

Maybe we could find some agreement on this point at least; Is the Holy Spriit God? If we can agree that He is, then maybe we can move forward. What say you?

 

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." .................Take note; it does not say you will receive gift(s), but "the" gift which is the Holy Ghost. (Acts2:38)

You claim this was only for the Apostles, Peter says it is for all who call upon the name of the Lord...

"And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts2:21)

"For the promise".....what promise? Verse 38, "the gift of the Holy Ghost"......who is this Holy Ghost promised to? ...... "is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts2:39)

 

Greetings again steaver,

I will simply state my belief, but do not want to discuss this subject at length. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the power of God that He uses for specific purposes. The parallelism in the following passage gives some indication of this.
Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

My reasons for not wanting to further pursue the subject of the Holy Spirit is the following:
1. In my earlier Posts I have attempted to carefully establish that there is One God the Father and that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
2. What I presented was carefully chosen and the result of my consideration of this subject over many years. Although I have adopted many ideas from my spiritual environment, what I wrote was not a parrot version of what I have been taught. These things have become my own thoughts and reasoning on this important subject.
3. The selection of material was deliberate, focussing on only a portion of the whole subject, but sufficient in my estimation to establish and confirm my belief.
4. The selection was also designed to negate the teaching on the Trinity, even using some of the best known verses that are usually selected to support the Trinity.
5. In contrast I have not carefully considered the subject of the Holy Spirit, except in a general, and overall sense.
6. I do not believe Jesus Christ is part of the Trinity, and the Scriptures used to attempt to teach that the Holy Spirit is the 3rd member of the Trinity seem to me obscure at the best.
7. Concerning the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the same applies as to my lack of preparation and thoughts on this subject.

To be quite honest with you I am a specialist in certain areas, and have only a general appreciation of other areas. I will leave this area to you and anyone else that would like to discuss this aspect with you. I appreciate the time and effort that you have put into responding to my various posts.

Kind regards
Trevor