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Featured True Saving Faith = Believe, Repent, Obey

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Samuels, Jul 27, 2019.

  1. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    BELIEVE

    In the NT, the Greek indicates that “believe” is a present tense imperative verb!
    So, a continuing belief-faith is necessary for continuing salvation-eternal life!


    “… whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him may have
    [present tense: may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world, that
    He gave His only Son, that whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe]
    in Him should not perish but have [present tense: continue to have] eternal life.”
    (John 3:16)


    REPENT

    In the NT, John used the word “believe” … meaning to have faith, and to repent.

    Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood as opposite sides of
    the same coin. Repent means to turn from one’s allegiance to sin and unbelief,
    whereas believe means to place one’s trust in Christ. Thus, when one is mentioned
    the other is implied … John never used the words repent, repentance, or faith
    to describe the way people are saved. Instead, he used believe since this term
    included all of these ideas.” (The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

    “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and to
    cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)
    This refers to our on-going sins!

    OBEY

    We’re talking about obedience to Jesus’ teachings and commands.
    Continuing obedience is what “being faithful” means!


    “… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:51)

    “You are truly my disciples, if you remain faithful to my teachings” (John 8:31)

    Disobedience proves Unbelief
    “Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? So we see that because of their unbelief
    they were not able to enter his rest … so we ought to tremble with fear that some of
    you might fail to experience it … IF we disobey God … we will fall.” (Hebrews 3:18--4:11)


    Those who love Jesus obey Him
    ● “Those who accept My commandments and obey them are the ones
    who love Me … All who love Me will do what I say” (John 14:21, 14:23)
    ● “When you obey My commandments, you remain in My love” (John 15:10)
    ● “He who keeps His commandments abides in Him and He in him” (1 John 3:24)
    ● “Loving God means obeying His commandments” (1 John 5:3)
    Who gets to heaven who does not love God and obey His commandments?


    Those who love the LORD obey Him
    ● “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul,
    with all your strength, and with all your mind” (Luke 10:27, Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30)
    ● “You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.” (Luke 4:8)
    ● “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord’, and not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46)


    Being a slave of obedience leads to righteousness (eternal life)
    “… you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either (slaves) of sin which leads to
    (eternal) death, OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)


    The Shepherd of Hermas
    “Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God.
    But there is no (eternal) life in those who do not keep His commandments.”

    (from “The Shepherd of Hermas”, which was one of the most popular works of the first
    several centuries of the early church – arguably the most. It was quoted as Scripture
    by such early Christian leaders such as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria,
    and Origen.)
     
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  2. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I disagree.

    Yes, true belief is always in the present-tense, as I see it.
    But it is not an imperative, it is a declarative.

    There is nothing in John 3:16 that commands someone to believe.
    It is declaring that those who believe, should have something.

    As faith is a necessary evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) that accompanies God's gift of eternal life and a person's being born again from above, so is true belief a gift ( Philippians 1:29 ).
    In the Greek, the word is "pisteuon", and is present tense active, rendered into the Late Middle English of the AV as, "believeth"...a constant thing.

    " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ( John 3:16 )

    In John 3:16, I see these important distinctives:

    1) Whosoever believes ( Present-tense, continues ) in Him, God sent His Son so that they should not perish.
    2) Whosoever believes ( Present-tense, continues ) in Him, God sent His Son so that they should have eternal life...not "may have".

    To me, there is no modicum of "chance" in the entire equation, and there is a big difference between "should / shall" and "may / might".
    God did something, so that everyone who believes, should two things...not perish, and have eternal life.

    If man does something, there is a 50/50 chance that it will fail.
    If God does something, there is no "in-between".
    His work never fails.

    That is why I am so glad that my gift of eternal life does not rest in my own futile efforts.
    If it depended upon any part of me or my efforts, it would fail.:Thumbsup
     
    #2 Dave Gilbert, Jul 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
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  3. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    From my perspective, repentance is not the same as belief...

    It accompanies true belief.
    Please see Acts of the Apostles 2:37-40, where they asked Peter what they should do ( after believing ), and he replied, "repent and be baptized".

    Since, according to Scripture ( Romans 1:18-32, John 3:19-20 ) man will not repent, then it has to be granted to men to do so ( Acts of the Apostles 5:31, Acts of the Apostles 11:18 ).
    Therefore, repentance is not a condition, but a necessary evidence, just as faith is ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

    In 1 John 1:9, the "if" establishes a contrast..."if" the believer confesses their sins, then He is faithful and just to forgive those sins and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness.
    If they do not, then they are not saved and they were never forgiven of their trespasses ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).

    1 John is speaking to both believers and unbelievers.
    Context is established in 1 John 1:8.

    " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. <---- Unbelievers established.
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. <---- Believers established
    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." ( 1 John 1:8-10 ) <----- Again, unbelievers established.

    8) IF we ( professing believers ) say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
    Therefore, anyone who professes Christ, yet says that they have not sinned or they say that they do not sin, is deceived and the truth is not in them.

    9) If we ( professing believers ) confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    In other words, if a person does these things, it is, once again, proof that not only is a person already forgiven, but cleansed from ALL unrighteousness ( Colossians 2:13-14 )...not just what they committed in the moment.

    10) If we ( professing believers ) say that we have not sinned, we make Christ a liar, and the truth is not in us.


    For a person to be saved, the truth must be in them.
    If a person is not, then that truth is not in them and never was.:(
     
    #3 Dave Gilbert, Jul 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
  4. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Disobedience over the life of a professing believer, does indeed show that they have not truly believed.

    No Spirit = No change at the heart level = no genuine desire to repent and obey.
    However, Once Born-again, Always Born-again.

    To me, God's word addresses the reader and is speaking to a mixed crowd..."wheat" and "tares" ( See Matthew 13 ).
    The "if" statements are targeting all who read the Scriptures and assuring them that "if" they hear His voice, "if" they hold the beginning of their confidence steadfast until the end, "if" they continue in His word, etc, then ( and only then ) are they truly Christ's sheep...which He will lose none of ( John 6:39 ).

    Three points I'd like to make:

    Those who love the Lord obey Him...Those that do not, don't.

    Being a slave of righteousness does not lead to eternal life...it is the evidence of one having had the gift of eternal life bestowed upon them from on High.


    "The Shepherd of Hermas" as being non-Scripture, has absolutely no authority for the lives of believers.



    In addition,
    Irenaeus taught what would later become "The Magisterium"...the equal authority of Scripture, Tradition and the teachings of the Apostolic Succession (which would become represented in the Popes ). He is regarded as a "saint" in both the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. I personally do not believe that he was saved.

    Clement of Alexandria was a philosopher that supposedly converted to Christianity and taught at the Catechetical School in Alexandria, Egypt. I also think he was not saved.

    Origen was a student of Clement, and studied both the Bible and the contemporary philosophy of his time. He was one of the "forefathers" of textual criticism, as well as perhaps the first major commentator of the Scriptures. He also believed that Jesus had a human soul, going beyond the statements of Scripture and hypothesizing that Christ's deity "fused" with his humanity, "mingling" God and man. He went beyond Scripture in other places, demonstrating that, to me, he also was not saved.

    Quoting "The Shepherd of Hermas" as Scripture was but one of many errors that the "early church fathers" would go on the make.
    To me, they were heretics that should never have been listened to.:(


    The only "church father" that I think was even remotely close to being saved, was Polycarp.
    As I see it, all the rest are suspect, for reasons I will not get into at this time.
     
    #4 Dave Gilbert, Jul 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
  5. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Wrong on both counts.

    If man does something, who knows what his chances of success are?
    They range from 0% to 100%.

    God's work sometimes depends on man's free will.
    His work often is to give a person a chance to do something right.
    Why do you think there are several verses about BACs being tested?
    And there are about a dozen NT conditional "IF" verses,
    I.E. IF you are obedient, you will inherit God's promises.
     
  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Are you sure Jesus' gospel wasn't HEAR YE HEAR YE God loves some of you and hates the rest. If your lucky he picked you. Smokem if you gottem buckle up and wait and see if he picks you.
     
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  7. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Says who?

    With respect, I have the right to decide the correct understanding of His words just as much as you do. ;)

    We're back to 50/50.
    It's either successful, or it isn't.
    I'm not aware that anything is up to man's will.

    In fact, being born again is by God's will, not man's will ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
     
  8. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Given the chance, man would only ever do the wrong thing.
    Mankind is not capable of leveraging ourselves out of wallowing in the mire unless God miraculously changes our hearts.
    To weed out the "tares", as well as to show His children what He made them of.

    Trials and tribulations cause false believers, sown in the "field" of Christ's "wheat", to show their true colors...they all will fall away at some point.
    They cause true believers to see the reality of their God-given gifts of faith, belief and perseverance, and to experience the truth of His word's promise that He is their Deliverer.
    God's children will never fall away ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
    Again, what you see as "conditional", I see as "evidential".

    God's word is addressing believers...
    The "if" statements are there to prompt people to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith, and to assure them.
    "IF" they are seeing the evidence, "THEN" they are saved..."ELSE" they are not saved.

    True and false brethren are a biblical reality.
    Not everyone who professes Christ is actually indwelt with His Spirit.
    As for me, I once saw things that way, but the more I read, the more I realized I had the cart before the horse.

    I now know that obedience to God is a result of Him having saved me and making me a new creature in Christ...:Cool
    I did not "warrant" His favor by my actions.:Cautious

    He acted, and I re-acted.:)
     
  9. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Given the chance, man would only ever do the wrong thing.
    Mankind is not capable of leveraging ourselves out of wallowing in the mire unless God miraculously changes our hearts.
    To weed out the "tares", as well as to show His children what He made them of.

    Trials and tribulations cause false believers, sown in the "field" of Christ's "wheat", to show their true colors...they all will fall away at some point.
    They cause true believers to see the reality of their God-given gifts of faith, belief and perseverance, and to experience the truth of His word's promise that He is their Deliverer.
    God's children will never fall away ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
    Again, what you see as "conditional", I see as "evidential".

    God's word is addressing all professing believers...whether or not they truly possess Him.
    The "if" statements are there to prompt people to examine themselves, to see if they are in the faith.
    As for me, I once saw things that way, but the more I read, the more I realized I had the cart before the horse.

    I now know that obedience to God is a result of Him having saved me and making me a new creature in Christ...:Cool
    I did not "warrant" His favor by my actions.:Cautious

    He acted, and I re-acted.:)
     
  10. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I am.

    I can also attest that it isn't, "God loves the entire world and sits on His throne, powerless to save someone without their express permission.", or that our obedience to His commands gains us some sort of favor with Him.
    Of that I am sure.;)
    Under man's system, we create our own "luck" by taking control of our destinies.
    Appealing, isn't it?

    "Heaven or Hell, you decide".:Sneaky
    To me, that's quite attractive, from a sales standpoint.

    Who's not going to go for a deal like that?
    Tens of thousands went for it during the "crusades" during the '50's into the '90's....and thousands are still doing it every year.:Thumbsup
    You act as if mankind is waiting in line to be reconciled to God, but we're not waiting.
    Instead, our entire outlook on sin and sinning is "party like it's 1999".

    Apart from God, men couldn't care less if their sins offend Him...
    We enjoy them, and would never give them up ( Romans 1:18-32 ).

    Mankind, if we even cared, wouldn't be in the position that we are in.

    We don't care about sin, unless we're afraid of the consequences.
    Remove the consequences, we go right back to wallowing in sin.
    That is what we will do, if God does not change our hearts.

    Good old "human nature"...we're like dogs and pigs, who love what we're stuck in.:(
     
    #10 Dave Gilbert, Jul 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  11. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Lets make a deal, If your right and I end up in hell you can tell God the joke about this guy who thought God was TOO good, TOO kind, TOO loving and TOO great to fail the universe and everyone in it.

    But if I'm right your going to have to join our bus ride for ice cream in heaven even take the first bite before I do.


    I'm not worried at all. I caught a glance of Jesus Christ and I knew right there He had everything covered.


    "You act as if mankind is waiting in line to be reconciled to God"
    Try acting like you are the only one on earth and God is the only one in heaven. Your life is merely the first syllable to what he is telling you.




    "
    "Heaven or Hell, you decide".:Sneaky
    To me, that's quite attractive, from a sales standpoint."

    A Selfless person tends to see thing differently from a Selfish person.

    Hell could be getting everything I want and watching you or any soul suffer eternally.

    Whereas heaven would be knowing everyone I care about, everyone, is ok especially those who appeared as enemies and didn't like me.

    When you pick up the love of God you consider all as your own children and are way far along from the spiritual playground of who can beat who up.

    There is no fear here.
     
  12. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    DG,

    Many thanks for the double portion (it wasn't a double blessing).

    You continue to believe that BACs are robots with no free will.
    E.G. A BAC cannot choose to habitually sin.
    I wish you would've explained this to poor Paul.
    Then, he wouldn't have bothered to write Romans 6, etc.
     
  13. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    No I do not.
    What I think you have yet to see, is that I believe that man's will is in lock step with our sin nature...once released from that bondage by the new birth, our wills then become free to do what God wants.

    We as believers go from having the freedom TO sin, to having the freedom FROM sin.
    To me, you continue to think that man's will plays the operative part in gaining and keeping what God's word calls a gift...not a reward.
    The indwelling Spirit will not allow unrepentant sin, neither will our new natures.

    Have you ever heard the term, "sin sick"?

    It's what happens when a believer partakes in worldliness and becomes so sick of it, they literally feel ill.
    They also become horrified at how they have treated their precious Saviour and their best Friend, and their consciences can get "shipwrecked"...only time, obedience and God's patience and love can ever re-float it.
    The Lord used him to explain it to me.;)
    God used him to write much more than just Romans 6.

    Romans 7, 8, 9, 10...etc.

    In fact, there's quite a bit to say in Romans 7 about the new nature and the old, and the internal war that goes on with true believers.
    Fighting sin, and losing the battle...until the Spirit steps in.:)
     
    #13 Dave Gilbert, Jul 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  14. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Sorry, for the error (in red) ... I meant to say:
    A BAC can choose to habitually sin.
     
  15. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Okay, I have been undecided between these two ...
    (1) a BAC can continue to be involved in habitually sinning
    (2) a BAC can NOT be a habitual sinner (as per 1 John 2:9)

    Now, because of 1 John, I'm favoring (2).
    Reason ...
    A person can receive the Holy Spirit and NOT become a BAC.
    A person can receive the Holy Spirit and continue to habitually sin.

    Some have insisted that BACs have a new nature whereby they cannot sin.

    Me personally ...
    I received the Holy Spirit ... and my ideas, attitudes, opinions, etc. changed.
    I could and did sin.
    5 years later, I was baptized with the Holy Spirit (with a few words of tongues).
    Along with this, I was anointed and called to be an evangelist.
    I could and did sin.
    The Holy Spirit taught me some deep spiritual Truths, which He told me to share.
    Some years later, I somehow got the revelation, etc. that I must NOT sin, period.
    So yes, on this point, I am confused.

    IMO, this doesn't go along with your ideas at all. Am I correct.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Are we saved by our own actions, or by those of Chrsit Himself?
     
  17. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    We don't act to get saved, we act because we are!... Brother Glen:)
     
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  18. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Truly, I've lost count of the number of times that I've explained this to you:
    Salvation is a process of co-operation between God and the BAC.
    Both justification and sanctification (the process) are necessary for salvation.
    Ref: the NT.
     
  19. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Yes, this is true for many (most?) BACs.

    BACs who do not "act" are in rebellion, which is unbelief.
    They have the free-will to choose to rebel.

    Do have any idea of the percentage of BACs
    in N. A. churches who are involved in habitual sin?
    How about the percentage of pastors?
    If you knew, you'd be shocked (or would you?).

    N. A. = Northern Afghanistan
     
  20. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    No.;)
    And that, sir, is exactly the opposite of what grace is ( Romans 11:5-6 ).:Redface
     
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