I am not a Calvinist so that everyone knows.
I am not an Arminian so that everyone knows.
I do believe in once saved always saved and that does not make me a Calvinist.
I am a Baptist, I take serious my relationship in Christ and I love everyone and believe Christ died for all and that all can be saved, but most will not.
I reject universalism, special election, infant baptism, and a bunch of other stuff and I accept the 66 books of the Bible as 100 percent God's word.
So now put your theological model's boxing gloves on and let the in fighting began, metaphorically intended.
Here is a starter for you Calvinist that might get your spiritual blood pressure up, maybe not so much at first but as things progress in my favor you may need to see your medical doctor or take a breather.:godisgood:
Romans 11:32 is the culmination of Chapters 8, 9, 10, and 11. It completely refutes the doctrine of special election. Now that should draw some retort! If you are going pile on the bricks, :tonofbricks: check to make sure they are made of styrofoam.
P. S. I welcome quotes form different men in history and recent authors but try to keep it short I hate reading long extended explanations of a doctrine, just get to the point. I have anti my view commentary listing ADD and ADHD. Now if you are a wimp and your wear theological feeling on your sleeve then perhaps you don’t need to engage this topic.
Truth or Calvinism - That should do it.
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benefactor, Jul 30, 2009.
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Ever try reading those 66 books you say you believe?
Cheers,
Jim -
And Cheers to You! -
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preachinjesus Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
wow the OP is just plain incendiary. It's like walking up to someone on the street and smacking them around. ;)
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I take it - it got your attention. I was watching a U-tube feed of a "Christian" doing basically just that. I wonder if the reason I worded it that way was because of some subliminal effect it had on me?:D -
I thought I was being nice. I was offering a solution to his problem. Then I lose a point!
Cheers,
Jim
PS. Some claim they read the Bible. It says Holy Bible on the genuine leather cover. -
What are points for but to be gained and lost.
Benefactor -
Romans 11:32 the proves Calvinist wrong
32. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
This is the bottom line. The balance sheet concludes that all are in disobedience and as such all may now be shown. Mercy is there for all period.
"May" teaches us that the subject of mercy, lost sinners, must decide if they want mercy.
"May" of course requires a condition and as such it flat rocks the boat, no it sinks the boat of Calvinism. Why? Thanks for asking
ACRT - Augustinianism, Calvinism, Reform Theology all have it wrong because for a person to have mercy he must meet a condition which is required in the statement, "May show mercy to all"
God is not willing that any should perish and He desires all to be saved and here He as declared all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Is that not great! What a wonderful God we serve. -
Welcome Benefactor!
Looks like you are up to lively debate, or at least lively monologue :)
We will have to see about the former.
I think you will find around here things are not quite as cut and dried as you seem to think :) -
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Truth or Calvinism........It just dawned on me. That was a typing error and should read: Truth of Calvinism.........Ok, now I get that.
Cheers,
Jim -
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Romans 11: For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
The Conclusion of 8-11
A. All committed to disobedience
B. All may have mercy
C. May set a condition for receiving mercy
D. Special election cannot exist when mercy is conditional on the part of the believer. Slam Dunk
Stay tuned folks now comes the Calvinist spin on this. -
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God desires A and B to be saved but only pick B. What is wrong with this picture?
Jesus is the savior of all men and God desires all to be saved but according to ACRT they cannot be saved unless God saves them. However God desires all to be saved and died for all but now denies His desire and picks a few and the rest He desires for salvation refused to pick them, thus they go to hell.
The logic is solid. If God desires / wills all to be saved and can but does not unless there is a condition then that is one big real irrefutable contradiction.
One must reason away the desire of God
Or
One must interpret the so called passages that are said to be special election in light of this passage and other universal offers, John 3:16 and others.
The way it will work and preserve God's Holiness is to understand election corporately and according to grace and foreknowledge, not individually for a few. -
Second, I don't see any condition in this verse for receiving mercy. Furthermore, that needs more explanation. What would a suitable condition be for receiving mercy? Mercy means we have done nothing to receive it.
Third, you have given no argument as to why special election cannot exist when mercy is conditional. You haven't shown from this verse that there are any conditions on mercy, much less on the part of the believer.
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1. Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2. for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.3. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6. who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
To desire and then to deny His desire by only picking a few of the all is a contradiction. The only option other than free will is universalism to heaven or to hell. The only solution is to accept what it says and to allow election according to foreknowledge to mean what it says and to accept what Romans 11:32 clearly says and to accept John 3:16 "world" meaning all mankind, just for a few. -
Darren
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