Turns out Jeb isn't the only one...

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Yep. Motor voter is a BIG mistake.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
They don't that I know of. I reviewed my post and couldn't find any place that I said they did. I didn't read the article. I am not in a position to do anything about it and it doesn't affect me. I am glad that someone is doing something about it. Every legal voter should have the chance to vote. No illegal voter should be able to vote.

You didn't really answer my question, did you? <wink>

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Notwithstanding the point you are trying to make, how does Colorado fit into Galatian's discussion of Nevada? Are you addressing the charges against the people who allegedly did this, or are you addressing your perceptions of Galatian?

The topic is voter fraud. Galatian in the past has been partial to certain kinds of voter fraud, complaining when he thinks Republicans might benefit. I was simply asking, as I have before, if the other side matters to him. He did not seem terribly concerned that illegal voters might vote in Florida. I was curious if he was concerned about it in Colorado, or if this was just selective complaining.</font>[/QUOTE]Again, you really didn't answer my questions, did you? &lt;wink, wink&gt;

The two cases are mutually exclusive. In Colorado, there are allegedly felons registering to vote, right? In Nevada, there are people who are allegedly signing up people to vote, yet are apparently throwing out the voter registrations for those people that were Democrats. [Note: no charges have been filed, so I am purposely not making any assumptions of guilt.]

One scenario involves people attempting to commit fraud. The other scenario involves fraud committed on would-be voters. Did you notice the last two sentences in the article Galatian posted? If that is true, then this is a VERY SERIOUS allegation.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I am not sure why you think I didn't answer your question. You seem to think that I connected the case in Nevada and the case in Colorado. I didn't. I simply pointed out another case of voter fraud and wondered when Galatian was going to comment on that.

I didn't notice the last two sentences in teh article. I didn't read it. I read what Galatian posted and found out what I wanted to know. I menteiond another case that Galatian had not mentioned.

Voter fraud is always wrong, no matter how it happens or who it benefits.

I have to tell you I am not sure what hte issue you are trying to make is.

 

[The Galatian]

Your recommendation to scrap the voter fraud program in Florida

You see, "voter fraud programs" are supposed to reduce voter fraud, not promote it, as Bush's plan did. It disinfranchised thousands of legal voters, and would have allowed thosands of felons to vote illegally. The new program, which is to be done by the counties, is aimed at letting legal voters vote, and preventing felons from voting. Much better, from my point of view.

With no program to determine legal vs illegal voters, the door is open to voter fraud.

Rather, the door closed a bit. Bush's plan was set up to fraudulently disinfranchise legal voters, and to permit many felons to vote illegally.

We should not scrap the program in any state. We should refine it.

Like, say, make it so it prevents fraud, instead of perpetrating it? Yeah, that's a good idea. That's what Florida did, by scrapping the Bush plan.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You continue with the unproven assertion that this was a "Bush plan" to disenfranchise voters. Maybe one day you will put up or shut up. Other than that, you have basically repeated what I said.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I am not sure why you think I didn't answer your question. You seem to think that I connected the case in Nevada and the case in Colorado. I didn't. I simply pointed out another case of voter fraud and wondered when Galatian was going to comment on that.

That being said, what was the intent of interjecting this into the discussion?

Here is the initial post you gave us that I questioned:

I noticed Colorado had seroius voter fraud going on among felons. When were you going to complain about that one?

As I said previously, the two are mutually exclusive.

I didn't notice the last two sentences in teh article. I didn't read it. I read what Galatian posted and found out what I wanted to know. I menteiond another case that Galatian had not mentioned.

Ah, now we are getting somewhere.

Voter fraud is always wrong, no matter how it happens or who it benefits.

This statement represents a common ground that we do indeed share. I would dare imagine that we both possess a deep love of country.

I have to tell you I am not sure what hte issue you are trying to make is.

That is easy: I am making an attempt to reiterate the seriousness of these charges. IMO, this is more serious than the case in Colorado as it involves a willful deception of legitimate voters.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Baptist in Richmond:
That being said, what was the intent of interjecting this into the discussion?

Because the thread was about voter fraud. This was another case of it. The two may be mutually exclusive, but they are the same topic.

I would dare imagine that we both possess a deep love of country.

I am sure of that.

I am making an attempt to reiterate the seriousness of these charges. IMO, this is more serious than the case in Colorado as it involves a willful deception of legitimate voters.

So why is willful deception of the voters more serious than willful deception of the state voting authority? I don't think one is more serious than the other. I think they are both equally serious. In NV, you have a company acting on its own deceiving voters. In CO, you have voters acting on their own to deceive the state. They are both equally serious. As I say, voter fraud of all kinds is serious. All of it is unacceptable.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
So why is willful deception of the voters more serious than willful deception of the state voting authority?

[The following is based on allegations, and nobody has been convicted.]

In Colorado, the charge is that some who are not eligible to vote are trying to subvert the law and vote. In other words, someone is engaging in willful deception of the state voting authority.

In Nevada, there is a group that is alleged to have worked under the guise of voter registration that is supposedly destroying the registration forms for anyone who identifed themselves as a Democrat. In other words, someone is engaging in willful deception of the state voting authority, and someone is being robbed of the legitimate right to vote.

Who are the victims in Colorado?
Who are the victims in Nevada?

 

[just-want-peace]

Who are the victims in Colorado?
Who are the victims in Nevada?

1The citizens of Colorado, and indirectly the remainder of the citizens of the USA

2The citizens of Nevada, and indirectly the remainder of the citizens of the USA

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by just-want-peace:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Who are the victims in Colorado?
Who are the victims in Nevada?

1The citizens of Colorado, and indirectly the remainder of the citizens of the USA

2The citizens of Nevada, and indirectly the remainder of the citizens of the USA </font>[/QUOTE]So, are you saying (or writing, actually) that the willful deception of these voters (direct deception I might add) is not as serious? How would you feel if you were one of those people who filled out a voter registration card, only to find out that you were not registered to vote? Basically, you would be told that your vote would not be counted in this election.

Do you really that the Nevada case is not a much larger concern, especially now that the same group is receiving similar complaints in the state of Oregon?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Who are the victims in Colorado?
Who are the victims in Nevada?

The victims in Colorado are the state and the voters, and ultimately the candidates and the nation at large. The victims in Nevada are the voters, and ultimately the candidates and the nation at large. My point is that there is no "better" or "worse" here. They are bad. Both are equally bad. It is no better to have illegal voters voting than it is to have legal voters turned away because someone threw their application away. Neither is good; neither should be tolerated. They are the same.

 

[The Galatian]

Well, I'm pleased to see you agree, Larry.

 

[Pastor Larry]

It's not new ... I have always had that position ...

 

[The Galatian]

If so, I'm puzzled about what got you so angry about the public outcry that forced Bush to cancel a program that was going to fraudulently disinfranchise thosands of legal voters, and permit thousands of felons to vote.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I recall you saying that this was a bad thing.

 

[Pastor Larry]

No, you are wrong. I wasn't angry about the public outcry and the canceling of a program. My point was twofold:

1) You insisted on blaming Bush without bothering to provide evidence that Bush was actually involved in directing towards the outcome. Your own link at the time cited that Bush was not guilty of wrongdoing. I am of the opinion that placing blame on Bush so vehemently as you did should require that you actually prove your point by more than innuendo.

2) When the program was canceled, there did not appear to be any program to rule out voter fraud. So the door would be open to voter fraud. If you take out the only program to fight voter fraud, and do not replace it with a program to fight voter fraud, you open the door to voter fraud. Given the state of the Florida electoral system, it is vital that voter fraud be addressed. What I said was bad was the complete absence of a voter fraud program.

 

[Daisy]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
1) You insisted on blaming Bush without bothering to provide evidence that Bush was actually involved in directing towards the outcome. Your own link at the time cited that Bush was not guilty of wrongdoing. I am of the opinion that placing blame on Bush so vehemently as you did should require that you actually prove your point by more than innuendo.

Ok, how about this one ?

Bush urged to 'pull the plug' on voter purge

By CHRIS DAVIS and MATTHEW DOIG

STAFF WRITERS
Herald Tribune.com
Oct. 16, 2004

Several days before the state's felon voter list was sent to county elections offices across Florida, state officials expressed doubts about its reliability.

The doubts were serious enough that Gov. Jeb Bush was advised to "pull the plug" on the entire project, according to an e-mail written by a state computer expert and obtained by the Herald-Tribune.

Bush refused the request, the e-mail said, and told the Department of State to proceed with the purge of nearly 48,000 voters.

&lt;snip&gt;

Bush said Friday that he was never warned about any problems before the list was released.

But his denial contradicts a May 4, 2004, e-mail in which Florida Department of Law Enforcement computer expert Jeff Long describes how election officials told Bush the list needed to be abandoned.

&lt;snip&gt;

That investigation has been going on for more than three months with no published findings. Under state public records law, records generated from such investigations become public after 60 days.

But Department of State officials have not turned over any documents from the investigation despite repeated requests from the Herald-Tribune.

&lt;snip&gt;

It's not proof, but it is evidence.

 

[The Galatian]

Yeah, like finding somone inside a jewelry store with a broken window in front and a tire iron in his hand is evidence.

 

[Pastor Larry]

That is at least a start. But the allegation was made that Bush directed the outcome in order to prevent democratic leaning voters from voting. Your article still proves nothing of the sort. But it did give the interesting quote that you, for some reason, you admitted.

But the governor wanted state elections officials to fix the problems and get the list released, Long said.

"The governor's office, I think, was wanting to move forward anyway with making it right," he said.

Did you omit this little part because it proves what I have been saying, and denies what you have tried to show? Why else would you? Why wouldn't you, in the interest of fairness, present the evidence for the position you don't hold?

The guy who said that was the same guy who wrote the email referred to above (Long). He said Bush wanted the state to get it right. Will you admit that now?

 

[The Galatian]

Unfortunately, "getting it right" the Jeb way not only again would have disinfranchised thousands of voters, he also came up with a new fraud: Remove Hispanics felons (most Hispanics in Florida vote Republican) from the excluded list, so that they could vote.

Worse than the first time, in other words. Fortunately, he got caught, and the resulting uproar in the media forced him to cancel it.

And now the details of the investigation are being illegally withheld from the public. Imagine that...

 

[Pastor Larry]

That doesn't appear to be true. It seems that the process was not allowed to play out to know what Bush would have done. It is inappropriate to speculate. There is no evidence that the exclusion of Hispanic felons was ordered by Bush.

But why do you charge illegal withholding of details?