You mean that Paul lied to us when he stated that while even a saved person, was weak and in his flesh could not live as he ought for jesus?
that even the greatest Chrsitian who ever lived was weak in himself tolive rightly?
that ONLY those who live by the person of the Spriit can have that freedom in Christ!
Question: You were a child of the Devil, in His kingdom before being saved, right?
Two major objections against Non-Calvinists answered
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Skandelon, Nov 15, 2013.
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JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
All they do is attack, attack, attack and then, the moment you stand up to them, they start whining and playing the victim card.
People like JamesAch and "Happy Christian" make you all look bad.
In all fairness, in their cases, I think there may be some mental illness going on there.
Here's a simple question for you: Did you seek Christ or did Christ seek you? And how does a spiritually dead, unregenerate man, at enmity with God, seek and please God? -
I hope you don't say Romans 7, because in Romans 7 Paul said he was "sold under sin" and brought into "captivity to the law of sin". No Christian is sold under sin or brought into captivity to the law of sin, Paul said a Christian has been set free from the law of sin.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Perhaps you were not familiar with this scripture? No Christian is sold under sin or brought into captivity of the law of sin.
So, Paul DID NOT say a Christian is weak and cannot live right. But maybe that is what they taught you in your Reformed church? :rolleyes:
I hope not, because that would be complete error, and you don't want to believe or teach error do you? -
To fulfill His prophecy as One betraying messiah, the father determined/selected Judas for do that role, and Judas acted based upon his own nature, doing as he "willed" to use your terminology!
Judas had to do what he did, but god did NOT have to force him to do ANYTHING 'against his will!" -
MANY saved live weak andineffectual here, in bondgae, they need to discover that truth! -
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So, yes, God's call to follow Christ (as a disciple) is unto salvation. It is my opinion that God never called Judas to be a true, genuine disciple. -
Romans 7:14-19 Niv
Paul stating what he lived and ONLY found freedom from that burden when he realized :
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 6:11-14nasb
We chosse to obey the flesh or the Spirit, sinners can only choose their flesh! -
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
No Christian is sold under sin, Paul repeatedly tells us that we are no longer slaves or servants of sin, we have been made free of sin.
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
A Christian is not sold under sin, Jesus has redeemed us, he has bought us with his blood, we now belong to Jesus and are his servant.
So, Romans 7:14 cannot possibly be speaking of a Christian.
Paul also said he was "brought into captivity of the law of sin" in Romans 7;
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
This cannot possibly be a Christian, because in chapter 8 Paul says the Spirit has made him free from the law of sin;
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
So again, Paul cannot be speaking of a Christian in Romans 7.
So, you need to show me something else, you have not shown me where Paul said a Christian was weak and could not live as he ought to for Jesus.
So please show me that scripture. So far you have not done so. -
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If you will show me this scripture I will be glad to answer your questions. I asked first. -
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
So our discussion is finished. I will take up the discussion with the unbiased readers that have been following us. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
In response, I denied these passages had reference to election to apostolic office because they dealt with coming to Christ for eternal life with absolutely no reference to election to office of any kind. He countered by asserting that calling to salvation and calling to apostolic office or any service were inseparable.
I countered by eight contextual reasons why his position was not tenable but contrary to the context. One primary reason that exposed his last argument that calling to salvation and calling to service were inseparable was the example of Judas. Judas proves that call to apostolic office by the Father and the Son is not tied to salvation as Judas was lost when he was chosen to be an apostle. However, in the context we are debating, NONE ARE LOST who are given by the Father to the Son, and so election to apostolic office cannot possibly be in view as Judas was chosen by the Father to apostolic service as a LOST man. Hence, a direct contradiction to the whole premise upon which Skandelon builds his argument and defense of corporate election.
In addition to this insurmountable problem to his theory is another equally insurmountable problem. The call to initially follow Christ is separated by both time and design from the call to apostolic service. In addition not all called to follow Jesus were called to apostolic office and therefore, it is impossible to PRIMARILY restrict John 6:37-65 or John 17:2-3 to election of a few Jews to the apostolic office inseperable with salvation. Instead being chosen or given to Christ for eternal life (Jn. 17:2-3; 6:37-40) is the primary focus while being chosen to apostolic office is completely separate and not even mentioned in John 6. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Ridicule has been the only response by some to repetition of John 6:29-65 while completely avoiding the detailed responses that were included to answer their arguments against my exposition.
1. We have given detailed reasons why "cometh to me" in John 6:29-65cannot possibly be interpreted to mean either PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL arrival "in Christ" as their interpretations are based upon confusing the definition of faith with repentance and regeneration.
2. We have given detailed reasons why "cometh to me" in John 6:29-65 cannot possibly be interpreted any other way but coming to Christ by faith.
Not one of these detailed reasons were addressed only ridicule empty of substance was the response.
If "cometh to me" refers to the act of coming to Christ by faith then their whole interpretation of this passage is destroyed and they realize that. That would mean that faith in Christ is not something inherent in human nature or ability but is due to being "given" and "drawn" to the Son by the Father.
1. Given by the Father refers to His eternal will of elective purpose - vv. 38-39
2. Drawn by the Father refers to His power in giving the ability to believe - vv. 44-45,64-65.
Arminians must deny that "cometh to me" means come to Christ by faith at all costs or their ship simply sinks. -
And God does not "zap" people to believe, Jhn 6:45 clearly explains that God teaches men, this is how they are enabled to believe. No man can believe what he does not know and has never heard (Rom 10:14). It is the knowledge taught man by God the Father through his scriptures that enables a man to believe.
That said, the man is responsible to both HEAR and LEARN from the Father.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Every man that has "heard" and has "learned" of the Father comes to Jesus. So it is knowledge that enables men to come to Christ. That is what teaching imparts- KNOWLEDGE. The scriptures do not say God zaps men with faith as Biblicist would falsely argue.
As for coming to Christ, I agree it is synonymous with believing on Jesus. It shows that a man who truly believes in Jesus will move toward him. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
What you have done is a wonderful work of eisgesis. You departed from the context when it pleased you and woven your repetitive "I believe" into the text where it suited you to reverse and deny what the text actually stated to the reverse.
There are several reasons your interpretation based on prescience cannot be correct.
1. There is not a syllable about the foreknowledge of God found in this text.
2. A prescience interpretation would necessarily reverse the cause and effect relationship found in this text to read "all that cometh to me shall be given me by the Father" as your interpretation demands coming is the cause not the consequence of being given due to foreknowledge.
3. Foreknowledge in regard to God eternal purpose of election to salvation is causative only because it is based upon God's eternal purpose (Rom. 8:28-29) as "according to His purpose" is presented as the basis for foreknowledge in Romans 8:28-29. Because God works "all things according to His purpose" all things are foreknown by God in regard to His salvation purposes. That is, "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 has its basis in "according to His purpose" rather than the reverse as your interpetation demands. In other words God knows in advance BECAUSE HE PURPOSED in advance to choose them to salvation (2 Thes. 2:13). Just as a builder knows in advance where every room, door, light socket is found in a house yet unbuilt because of the BLUE PRINT that purposed where they would be found. God foreknew the elect because He purposed to give them to Christ and purposed to enable them to believe.
Furthermore, the preceding context has already defined the limitations of who will come to Christ "ALL that the father gives" and in every case it is effectual in coming to Christ (Jn. 6:37-39). NONE OTHERS COME TO CHRIST because none others are given by the Father for that purpose. John 6:44-45 simply defines why "ALL" given to Christ effectually come to Christ because they are drawn whereas those in John 6:64 NEVER WERE DRAWN or "GIVEN" that ability to come to Christ.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
He came unto His own and His own received him not is natural fallen man's response to God's love. The only ones that come to the light are those whom God works in first to change that natural enmity against light:
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The issue is not that God uses EXTERNAL means to bring the gospel UNTO "all" that are given to the Son (Rom. 10:14) but this text deals with what happens INTERNALLY by the sole work of God that no human participates in or can do but God. What you are attempting to do is to include what these prophets specifically excluded in regard to this internal work by God alone. What you are attempting to do is include all mankind when the prophets excluded all mankind except for the covenant elect. What you are attempting to do is to define drawing only as potential for all mankind when these prophets demanded it was effectual in "all" who were the objects of this work.
In every way you are practicing eisgeis and turning this text and its context upside down and completley opposite to what it clearly teaches in the prophetic contexts from which it is drawn and in this context which clearly and explicitly denies that Christ draws "all' men without exception as those in John 6:64 are explicitly said to have NEVER been drawn by the Father in John 6:65 and no amount of eisgesis can deny that those in verse 64 were drawn by the Father. It is self-evident that verse 65 is given as the explanation by Christ why those in verse 64 "FROM THE BEGINNING" never believed, thus never came to Christ in the sense that the previous context defined coming to Christ.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
What Winman and others of his opinion miss is that external means used by God are for external purposes. They bring the gospel UNTO the elect but they cannot change the insides of a person. Change on the inside is described as supernatural and restricted to God alone. Winman wants to humanize every aspect of salvation and makes fun of the supernatural aspect by saying "zap" someone. HOwever, that is precisely what occurs INTERNALLY when God saves anyone. There is a SUPERNATURAL act of God peformed inside a sinner that nothing external can acheive. The scriptures explicitly define that internal supernatural work under many terms "created" (Eph. 2:10a) writing the law upon the heart (2 Cor. 3:3; Ezek. 36:26-27; Jer. 31:34) and in each case these texts deny all external means and men are responsible for that internal "zap" or supernatural work:
1. Ephes 2:8-9 - "not of ourselves....not of works"
2. Jer. 31:34 - "no man shall teach"
3. Mt. 16:17 - "flesh and blood hath not revealed it"
4. 2 Cor. 4:6-7 "God commanded....not of us"
However, my opponents not only ignore these explicit exclusions of external means and men to achieve this supernatural internal operation by God alone but explicitly deny and reverse these texts to include what they explicitly exclude. -
It is okay to disagree with others without being disagreeable. We can be cordial and kind and still interpret these things differently. In fact, I dare say that if your view is correct then I'm only doing what God has decreed for me to do, right?
You are a very systemized thinker, it seems from your commentary, and I can relate to that as I used to take that approach. The down side to that approach is that it is difficult to understand those who are not speaking from within your system's presumptions about a particular text. I think that is what is happening with us. We are talking past each other because you can't see the text from my perspective because you've never really understood it. I used to hold your perspective so I get where you are coming from. I see what you are seeing and I remember when I held to that view it was difficult for me to see things from another perspective. That is not a insult, just an observation based on some of the things you are still arguing regarding our perspective. It just doesn't appear that you are understanding what I'm attempting to explain. Maybe I'm not good at explaining it, but there are plenty of commentaries out there which do a better job.
I wish you all the best....blessings! -
I was not, and am not attempting to argue that John 6 is primarily concerned with election ot the apostolic office, nor that its restricted to apostles and their future mission to the gentiles. That is such a far cry from what I'm attempting to demonstrate about this approach.
I'm attempting to highlight the HISTORICAL CONTEXT, which involves:
1. Christ being here on earth in the flesh (a) to train a preselected few from Israel as apostles to start his Church and (b) to accomplish redemption on the cross.
2. Israel is being hardened/blinded/cut off from the truth of Christ's teachings, so as to accomplish His redemptive purposes. (They won't kill a man they believe in thus they are being blinded from the truth by use of parables, spirit of stupor, cutting off, etc.)
Understanding those FACTS (not opinions, but established facts of scripture), is important when attempting to interpret the words of Christ, who is addressing a Jewish audience along with his Jewish apostles while still here in the flesh.
That doesn't mean it is not applicable to us all, or that the truth is limited to only Jews. It simply helps to understand the context and thus the intent of why he might say some are enabled to come and others are not.
That being said, I've not once EVER denied that for ANY man at ANY time and of ANY nationality to come to Christ and be saved, he first must be DRAWN. So, to accuse me of believing that this truth only applies to apostles or to some Jews, or whatever, is a gross misrepresentation of what I'm attempting to explain about the historical context and thus the intent of the author from our perspective on this passage. If you understood our view, you would know that, and the fact that you continue to say things like this shows that you have not yet grasped our perspective. Maybe that is my fault, or the fault of trying to unpack this stuff on a forum where you are engaging with many different perspectives and approaches which can confuse the issues. I don't know, but there is no reason to get personal or to presume a negative intent about those who may disagree.
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