Explain
Matthew 12:30: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Two Thoughts
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Guido, Nov 8, 2022.
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It is like, Matthew 25:31-32, ". . . When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: . . ."
John 10:27, ". . . My sheep hear my voice, . . ." -
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
Now if we hold to your idea that God has to determine all things as your comments above show then we run into a problem as that then would require that God determines all things including evil and we know that is not so. So with that in mind what do we find that other ECF said.
Origen (circa 185–254)
It is not because God knows that something is going to be that that thing is going to be, but rather it is because it is going to be that it is known by God before it comes to be....
Therefore, it was not because the prophets foretold it that Judas became a traitor, but rather it was because he was going to be a traitor that the prophets foretold the things that he was going to do by his wicked designs, even though Judas most certainly had it within his power to be like Peter and John if he had so willed; but he chose the desire for money over the glory of apostolic companionship, and the prophets, foreseeing that this choice of his, handed it down in their books.
(Book 7 of his commentary on the epistle to the Romans (Romans chapter 8))
Jerome (circa 347 – 420)
For Adam did not sin because God knew that he would do so; but God in as much as He is God, foreknew what Adam would do of his own free choice.
(Against the Pelagians. Book 3 part 6)
Justin Martyr (circa 100 – 165)
We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed.
God is omniscient so He knows all that will happen but He does not have to cause all that happens as your theology requires. In fact we find things that happen that God did not want to happen.
Jesus poignantly laments, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted [θέλω G2309] to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling [θέλω G2309]” (Matthew 23:37; cf. Luke 13:34; John 5:40). Notice that, by the same verb (θέλω G2309), Christ’s will is directly opposed by the will of humans. [France, The Gospel of Matthew, 883; Nolland, The Gospel of Matthew, 951 ]
In many other instances, God’s will is unfulfilled. God does not desire or have “pleasure” [חפץ H2654 ] in the death of the wicked but desires repentance (Ezekiel 18:23, Ezekiel 18:32; Ezekiel 33:11). However, many reject him. [Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel: Chapters 1–24 (NICOT; Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1997), 589 ]
Therefore, God’s will is not unilaterally efficacious; some factor or factors bring about states of affairs contrary to God’s will that cause him grief and bring him to judgment, though he “does not afflict willingly” (Lamentations 3:33; cf. 2 Chronicles 36:16). Indeed, God is profoundly troubled at the thought of bringing judgment against his people. Thus, he declares over his wayward people, “How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I surrender you, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart is turned over within Me, All My compassions are kindled” (Hosea 11:8). However, finally God gives people over to their own choices (cf. Romans 1:24). God states that he called his people, “but My people did not listen to My voice, And Israel did not obey Me. So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart to walk in their own devices. Oh that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! I would quickly subdue their enemies and turn My hand against their adversaries” (Psalms 81:11-14).
If God unilaterally determines the wills of all creatures, how can one make sense of such statements? Why would God lament and long for his people to “listen” to him when he is the one who has unilaterally determined that they would not listen to him? [Does God Always Get What He Wants? A Theocentric Approach to Divine Providence And Human Freedom, John C. Peckham, Andrews University ] -
Alan Gross Well-Known Member
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things." Isiah 45:7
Clemens Romanus. A.D. 69.
Clement of Rome, lived in the times of the apostles and predates "Calvin",
on the Doctrines of Grace, over 1500 year. -
Alan Gross Well-Known Member
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Alan Gross Well-Known Member
The flesh only chooses sin, like a lot of this talk.
So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart to walk in their own devices. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Alan Gross Well-Known Member
that you might have Life." -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Matthew 13:27-30 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”
The wheat and tares grow together in this life. The wheat are already wheat and the tares are already tares. -
Alan Gross Well-Known Member
That is the only free will a lost person has. -
Alan Gross Well-Known Member
"The wheat and tares grow together in this life. The wheat are already wheat and the tares are already tares." -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
Remember all of us were lost prior to trusting in Christ Jesus but your going to say that He chose a select few to save which means that all those that He did not pick were condemned not because they sin but because He did not pick them so that they could trust in the Son.
A consistent Calvinist, which I would assume you are, must fully embrace divine decretal determinism. If that is the case, then God is the sole reason for our hatred of Him. He decreed it from eternity and we are powerless to resist that decree. We are powerless to resist His decree to hate Him, that is if Calvinism is true.
So why should God be angry with the sin He causes us to commit and the hatred He causes us to have towards Him? Indeed, when we hate Him, rebel against Him, reject Him and sin against Him, we are perfectly fulfilling His will for us.
So the question becomes why would "Christ justly reproves them with greater severity." as Calvin says? The Calvinist; view makes for a confusing and irrational view of God. -
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Alan Gross Well-Known Member
Those "free willers" with no assurance
do not have two nickels to rub together.
They are in fear of loosing their 'salvation'
and the sooner they do, the better,
to get Real Spirit-Filled Regeneration.
Repentance and Faith.
Not just, blind faith. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
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