Calvinists teach that before the world began, God chose a particular number of individuals to effectually save. They teach that this choice is 'unconditional,' meaning it is not based upon anything except God's own secret, self-glorifying purposes.
Yet, some passages seem to suggest that God did have a condition for His choice. i.e. God has chosen the weak... God chooses to give grace to the humble. The Father is seeking [true worshipers] to worship Him. Many are called but few are chosen (those chosen in that parable were properly clothed), etc.
What say you?
U - Unconditional Election
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Skandelon, Sep 28, 2013.
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"Humble yourself and you will be exalted." -
The biblical doctrine is God chooses individuals for salvation during their lifetimes by setting them apart spiritually in Christ based on God crediting their faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 4:4-5, 24.
Besides 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 (choosing the weak) we have God choosing those rich in faith, those who love God (James 2:5); choosing those who have lived without mercy (1 Peter 2:9-10). -
The following are some of my favorite "statements" regarding election:
It has to be said that much of the debate over the meaning of election, predestination, reprobation and associated concepts has been carried on at a level of systematic abstraction and binary logic that seems oblivious to the way the Old Testament speaks of God’s choice of Israel. Between election in the Hebrew Scriptures of Jesus and election in the foundations of theological systems there sometimes seems to be a great gulf fixed. The Mission of God, pg. 262.
“The election of Israel is instrumental, not an end in itself. Israel was chosen as the means by which salvation could be extended throughout the earth. Israel as a nation was chosen to be the vehicle in which God’s mission would be extended to the whole world.” Not every person in Israel was saved; like Abraham before them, they had to place their faith in God to be saved.
“The election of Israel is fundamentally missional, not just soteriological.” According to Wright, “If we allow the doctrine of election to become merely a secret calculus that determines who gets saved and who does not, we have lost touch with its original biblical intention. -
Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member
I've gone on record here many years ago to say that the belief that God could save all, but He chooses not to do so, is in my opinion a "damnable heresy" (II Peter 2:1). To believe such would go completely against the very nature of God.
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
These passages, any many more, would clearly refute the damnable heresies of unconditional election and limited atonement. -
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
God is not content to "pass over" folks as Calvinists define "pass over".
It is amazing, in the scriptures when God said he would "pass over" someone, it meant that God would save that person, but Calvinism has redefined "pass over" to mean that God has left that person to be damned.
Exo 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
I've said it a hundred times, I'll say it again, Calvinism teaches the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scripture is really saying. -
Comments removed. Have a nice day, you all.
peace to you:praying: -
Well,Pastor Bob and Dr. Bob certainly can't be mistaken for one another! The former needs to "moderate" his extreme statements.
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Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Pastor_Bob
Could you expand on this?
Are you saying That God has not planned salvation?
What do you think biblical election is?
Does God as creator have the right...to save or not save?
Do you dictate to God what He can or cannot do?
Calvinists believe and teach that God has planned to save each and every person that he can justly, and righteously save...no more, no less.
So if that is your argument, maybe you better learn what the teaching is before you go off on it.
if you want to battle against a strawman you create...have at it.If you want to speak as if you know what the issues are with the biblical teaching of election or the atonement try again. -
Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member
"Election here is understood as God's purpose and initiative in man's salvation. It is not that God chooses some for salvation and some for damnation, thus determining the destiny of each. Were that true, even the so-called salvation would be damnation, for to coerce a person as though he were a thing would be his destruction." New Testament Theology by Frank Stagg - 1962 Broadman Press - pg. 84
"God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind (this number could have been all mankind - my words, not the author's), as individuals, not for or because of any merit or work of theirs, nor of any value to Him of them; but of His own good pleasure." J.P Boyce, Abstract of Systematic Theology, pg. 37 - a secondary source gleaned from A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine by Thomas Paul Simmons - Second Printing 1979 Bible Baptist Publications - pg. 194
These are just a couple of example of books that pulled off my shelf this afternoon. I'm quite sure I could offer dozens more.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)
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Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member
John 1:9 That [Jesus] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (KJV)
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Pastor_Bob
Thank you for your response...let's see what we have;
for example you offer this:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
so let's examine your idea.....as Jesus was on the cross and said it was finished.......how did any person in the rain forrest, or North America....how did they have as you say opportunity to be saved???How was Titus 2:11
fulfilled as you claim...with the truth of Romans 10 coming into view?
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
This is only spoken of in reference to the elect......the same in Romans 8,9and eph1.....
You trying to stretch it is not supported anywhere in scripture.:thumbs:
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Yes,,, the seed of Abraham...not the seed of Adam.
Jesus taught men are bound in the realm of sin and death.They need to be saved by Him.
"Election is that eternal act of God by which, in His sovereign pleasure and account of no foreseen merit in them, He chooses
B](He could save all if He wanted to - my words, not the author's)
If the author did not offer that....why do you think you need to add to it and negate what the author actually said....
[/B] certain, out of a number of sinful men, to be the recipients of the special grace of His Spirit and so to be made voluntary partakers of Christ's salvation." Christian Theology - Systematic and Biblical by Emery H. Bankroft - 1976 Zondervan Publishing House - pg. 237
"God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind
(this number could have been all mankind - my words, not the author's),
Again...Boyce ...and while we are at it JL.DaGG were 5 pointers....Boyce does not want your wrong idea inserted here.:(
as individuals, not for or because of any merit or work of theirs, nor of any value to Him of them; but of His own good pleasure." J.P Boyce, Abstract of Systematic Theology, pg. 37 - a secondary source gleaned from A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine by Thomas Paul Simmons - Second Printing 1979 Bible Baptist Publications - pg. 194
I do not think you can make a biblical case for your statements.If you can I will read it.....but it is up to you to make a biblical case...
You have not done so here.I was disappointed to see your statements earlier on and I think perhaps you have not interacted with biblical Calvinists before.
I do not have thin skin...so you can feel free to come at me as strong as you want to....If I am posting what you think is in error...then by all means offer BIBLICAL correction.....not emotion, not opinion, or speculation...saying He could have did this or that.
I believe every person I speak to out here all across the country could be a lost sheep...i cannot see their heart...that is God's business.:wavey:
I have no desire to harm you personally. I will defend and contend for the faith ONCE delivered to the saints. -
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Pastor_Bob
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Deuteronomy 31:12
Assemble the people—men, women and children, and the foreigners residing in your towns—so they can listen and learn to fear the Lord your God and follow carefully all the words of this law.
Proverbs 1
Purpose and Theme
1 The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:
2 for gaining wisdom and instruction;
for understanding words of insight;
3 for receiving instruction in prudent behavior,
doing what is right and just and fair;
4 for giving prudence to those who are simple,[The Hebrew word rendered simple in Proverbs denotes a person who is gullible, without moral direction and inclined to evil.]
knowledge and discretion to the young—
5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance—
6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.[Or understanding a proverb, namely, a parable, / and the sayings of the wise, their riddles]
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools[Septuagint; Hebrew / at noisy street corners] despise wisdom and instruction.
Job 34
34 Then Elihu said:
2 “Hear my words, you wise men;
listen to me, you men of learning.
3 For the ear tests words
as the tongue tastes food.
4 Let us discern for ourselves what is right;
let us learn together what is good.
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
It is simple those who refuse to listen and learn because they are wise in their own eyes have not been ordained to eternal life. How can you come if you don't listen and learn? Those who never listen and learn will face condemnation there is no reason to not to believe the truth because of our own emotions.
1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully] -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
:wavey:
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