:thumbsup::wavey::thumbsup:
Unbelief of TULIP
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Feb 18, 2015.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I was asking a question of Bro. Willis.
He believes Calvinism to be the truth, and he believes the Spirit reveals that to him through the scriptures. (at least, that's what I took away from our conversation)
I believe Free will to be the truth, and I believe the Spirit reveals that to me through the scriptures.
If Calvinism is indeed the truth, then why does the Spirit continue to show me Free Will in the scriptures? Likewise, if Free Will is indeed the truth, then why does it continue to reveal Calvinism to Bro Willis? As he wrote, we are finite beings with finite minds. I actually like the term corruptible beings, seeing as the truth of the Word of God cannot be corrupted, but our interpretations can be.
As I've said before, and as I may actually change my signature to reflect, when we stand before God and enter into Glory, we'll be surprised (if such emotion is possible in the presence of the Lord) at how far off the mark our varied interpretations actually were. -
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Is there a place for humble and prayerful correction of our brother whom we believe to be in error? I believe so. Is this the right venue? I am not always so sure. Message boards can be very helpful; especially when the discourse is civil and among grown ups acting like grown ups. There is another message board that I joined back in 2005. It is a well-known Reformed message board. The irenic nature of the threads allowed me to read and learn. I am still a Baptist, so I have not accepted everything I learned, but my participation in that board opened my eyes to much. I changed my view on a few things (most notably my position on the Lords Day and the frequency of the Lord's Supper) because the brothers on that board caused me to do further research. But what we cannot do, on any message board, is attack and hope that we can bludgeon our brother into changing his position. I am not at all suggesting that is your intention. That is a general comment.
I am fully convinced that Monergism is the biblical position. I am will argue for it (in the apologetic sense of the word) and defend it, but I will not use it to beat my brother senseless and hope that I will win my brother by doing so. -
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Whatcha talking about, Willis? -
What we see here is the thought process of those who have embraced Calvinism.
Calvinism teaches that it is man's fault that he cannot repent and be saved. God must illuminate man of the truth to the end of causing man to believe what has been illuminated. There is no illumination given with a freewill choice to reject it at the same time.
This teaching bleeds over into all interpretations and applications of the Scriptures. Thus, Calvinist also will conclude that if they believe an interpretation and application of Scripture, then it must be that God illuminated them to believe such and ultimately caused them to believe such. You will see at the end of each testimony something like "God opened my eyes to see this truth".
But then the Calvinist is faced with a conundrum. There are a huge amount of people who call themselves Christians, who appear to be Christians, appear to love Jesus Christ, appear to love the truth, appear to study earnestly, appear to pray and ask God for wisdom....yet they reject what the Calvinist have embraced as truth and what the Calvinist believes in his heart God illuminated said truth unto them. So what to do?
The Calvinist has two choices;
(1) Conclude these said Christians fall under John 10 - Matt 13, they simply are not true Christians. We seen this from a couple of posters here on the BB.
(2) Conclude that these are Christians but they are causing their own disbelief, it is their fault, maybe sin, maybe an un-teachable spirit. They are really Calvinist, just naughty ones who need disciplined by God until they fully believe it. They just don't know it yet.
Here is an example....
As you can see, the possibility that they could be wrong about Calvinism is not an option. It cannot be, for when you conclude that it is ultimately God who has revealed unto you that TULIP is correct, you have sealed your belief in Calvinism forever, in this life at least. There is no more debating it from the perspective of considering the other side might be right and you might be wrong. So those here who are Calvinist are not here to learn and test what they believe to be truth, but to preach what they believe God has already showed them is the truth.
So what are you saying steaver? Don't you believe God illuminates Scripture and gives understanding? Yes I do. But I see freewill presented in the Scripture as part of God's sovereignty to do so and allow it. The Holy Spirit is always at work illuminating Scripture to the lost and to the saved, but we as truly sinful and fallible human beings can reject illumination or misinterpret illumination. Unless you heard a voice from heaven speak directly into your mind concerning a theology you could be wrong! -
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When it comes to unity, I do not mean partnership in ministry. I can agree with my Synergist brother that salvation is by grace, through faith, in Christ alone. I agree with him on the deity of Christ, His virgin birth, His resurrection, and His imminent return. In short - we can agree on the fundamentals of the Christian faith. That is the unity we share with one another. But our disagreement over Monergism vs. Synergism is real, and it presents real issues for cooperation in ministry.
So, yes, I was being completely sincere. I was not attempting to mislead. -
Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, no for it is not even able to do so,
1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Ephesians 2:1-2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according t
o the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.'
Ephesians 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Paul told Timothy, in 1 Timothy 4:14, "Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery." The gift to preach is Spirit-given. Is the gift to learn no less Spirit-given?
You would like to narrow this point to what Monergists believe. But it is larger than that. The Spirit gives us understanding of all doctrine.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
But then the Calvinist is faced with a conundrum. There are a huge amount of people who call themselves Christians, who appear to be Christians, appear to love Jesus Christ, appear to love the truth, appear to study earnestly, appear to pray and ask God for wisdom....yet they reject what the Calvinist have embraced as truth and what the Calvinist believes in his heart God illuminated said truth unto them. So what to do?
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The understanding we get from scripture is from the Holy Spirit, as is our sanctification. Sanctification will not be completed until our glorification. As we grow in sanctification our knowledge of God will also grow. Anyone who says their way is the only way, is thinking too much of themselves. Don't get me wrong, certain things we should be solid in. Example, 5 Sola's, Trinity, etc.... Basically anything that would cause us to change the attributes of God and causes us to worship a different god. Such as, the Muslim god, is Not our God. They pray/worship a god with much different attributes. Monotheism, but not our God.
Who is teaching " God illuminated me, so I am right you are wrong"? -
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I will guarantee you that this is a rarity for the Calvinist posting on this board. Most every Calvinist on this board will not say their understanding could be wrong.
If we can maintain the fact that either one of us could be wrong, then, and only then, can we have a brotherly, lovingly, debate over the issue. :wavey: -
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tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Well I been gone awhile but I'm back... I am also TULIP and I have come to realize one thing. Those who are TULIP were at one time Non TULIP. You cannot just accept the ULIP without laying the foundation on the T. Until one can accept the T in TULIP you will never see it. The T establishes that it is ALL a work of the 3 in one Godhead. The T Total Depravity states that there no ability of man to save himself. Man is a corpse and that is a hard pill to swallow. Free will took a bite of the forbidden fruit and man died. Paul named and claimed he is the chief of sinners and I claim the same as I'm sure my Calvanist brethren also claim. There are very many illustrations of the condition of the nature man in the bible. He's dead in trespasses and in sin... He an infant polluted in his own blood thrown out in a field... He's in a pit wherein there is no water... A grave. But I think the best one of all... He is a criminal nailed on a cross on the right of Jesus Christ... He has no ability to save himself. When the child of God embraces Total Depravity then he can really see just how great his Saviour Jesus Christ really is.
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