I wouldn't argue with that.
So Jesus paid for their sins? Is unbelief not a sin? If it is not, then why do they go to hell for something that is not a sin? IF it is a sin, then how can you say thatJesus paid for their sins since this sin is not included??
It simply shows an inconsistency on your part that cannot be supported by Scripture. It is convenient to say that man does not go to hell for sins but rather for unbelief. But that doesn't help because unbelief is sin. IF JEsus paid for all sin for all time, then unbelief must be included and God cannot send people to hell for sin that has been paid for.
But in fact, Scripture contradicts you by teaching that man does go to hell for their sin (Rev 21:8; Rev 20:11-15; etc). These verses are directly contradictory to your statement. As you said,
At least for me ...
Unconditional Election And the Invincible Purpose of God
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Monergist, Dec 29, 2002.
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The only one hurt by your unbelief is you!
The only one you sin against is you!
If you don't believe, what do you care about sin?
If you care about sin, to whom do you confess if you don't believe?
Jesus said it right! Belief Saves, Unbelief Condemns!
With belief comes conviction of sins, with confession of sins comes forgiveness of sins.
Jesus payment for the sins of the world does not exhonerate the sinner from the guilt of committing the sin. For example: You can pay your son's traffic fines, but that does not exhonerate your son of the guilt of breaking the law. If you are a Just father, you will exact some form of toll on your son to teach the lesson that needs to be learned. If your son is repentant, you may simply say, go and sin no more. -
Shilo,
Mark 13 is not about Israel alone. That's bad interpretation all around.
At any rate it is not relevant. As long as Jesus is speaking of elect persons who are not yet born, regardless of whether they be Jew or Gentile, he is talking about election preceding faith. That is what you must deal with. -
Yelsew,
All sin is ultimately against God. There is no such thing as a sin which only hurts you. You are really reaching!
And no one is saying that ubnbelief does not condemn. But that is not the whole truth either. Original Sin is sufficient to merit judgment.
What you still have to deal with is the questions put to you. You have to deal with the inconsistnecy in your position, and you have to deal with questions of where the Bible teahces that some benefots of th atonement are applied automatically and others are not. And that is what you have to argue of youwish to say that unbelief alone is what condemns. And you have to say THAT if you want to argue in any meaningful way that Christ paid for the sins of all people in a way diferent from the Calvanist. -
Latreia,
I have answered the questions, but just as Jesus does not force you to believe, I cannot force you to believe either. You believe what you want to believe, and all that is outside your belief boundary is unacceptable to you! The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth! So help me God!
The Christ atoned Once-For-All, meaning one time for all times and one man for all men! I'd say that was pretty consistent, and quite automatic since it is an finished work of God for mankind! Tell me what you don't understand about that.
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Yelsew,
And unfortunately, you have not done that. You have made responses, but none of them actually address the questions. You address siade issues, but not the core questions.
And through it all you STILL have not answered a single question! -
Israel is God's elect Nation. Isa. 45.4
......And if you would like to try to continue arguing that election proceeds faith..
God has said point blank that Israel is his elect..yet not all had faith and some died and went to hell..How could that be if you are correct?
As I said again..Cornelius was an unsaved Gentile who Had faith in God..Your whole theory IS WRONG and UNBIBLICAL.
[ January 22, 2003, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: shilo ] -
Latria,
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Jn1:29 Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world
Jn 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever Believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Jn. 2:2 He is the propitiation of our sins: And NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2nd Peter 2:1 Even denying the Lord that BOUGHT them.
Heb 10:29 OF how much soer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden inder foot the Son of God, and Hath counted the Blood covenant, wherewith he was santified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
the Gift of God Is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Sin debt was paid the scriptures make that Clear. However..In order for you to get your sin forgiven you have to BELIEVE and Recieve the GIFT. Jn. 1:12
That is what a Gift is you did nothing to merit the gift, you don't deserve the gift yet it was given..
Jesus paid the sin debt of the world..A GIFT.
you have to recieve that Gift in order for it to be applied to you.
If not, you die in your sin.
Unbelief is what sends a man to hell. becaue he didn't get recieve his free gift that was there for him to have.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
I don't know why you try to make it complicated. it's so simple 5 year old children understand it.
[ January 22, 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: shilo ] -
If the Words of Jesus set up several contradictions, GUESS WHO IS WRONG! It ain't Jesus! Furthermore, Guess who is misreading the bible? The one who sees a contradiction, that's who!
Now I suggest that you start using some of what God gave you to come to understanding the truth, and quit quibbling over jots and tittles of scripture. -
For those how doubt that God has given human beings a 'free will,' please, look at {The Arminian Stumper} pg. 6 January 21st. 2003 Time 3:48.
For example: Isaiah 66:3 in speaking of the Jews God said, ' . . . they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.'
Almighty God did not force their lives into their iniquities, they freely did it all by their selves. Only after their 'abominations' did God ' . . . choose their delusions . . . . because when He called, none did answer . . . . ' . . . and THEY CHOSE that which He delighted not.'
Their wills were not bound, they were free to make their own decisions. -
Sorry, but I fail to see the free will in any of the above. -
Yelsew,
Nice dodge. But no one wil buy it.
I do read Jesus who called people yet to be born elect, meaning that elction precedes faith. Even from Jesus lips Yelsew, and that without the horror you commit to the Word of God when you imply that we should pit one part of it (the gospels) against another (the epistles).
Such is the vanity of your position that you would seek, not to rightly divide the Word of truth, but merely to divide it, the better to conquer it with your huanistic philosophy. -
Calvinist don't disagree that men choose to follow their delusions. And we don't disagree that men left to their own nature will resist and refuse the things of God. People refuse the gospel message all the time. That is not where we disagree. We disagree at another point. Let's debate that point please, and stop restating what we all already agree with.
This is where we disagree: Man cannot resist the effectual calling of God. They can and do, by their nature, resist everything else about God and his Word. But they cannot keep from being born again, if God, their father so desires for them to be born. (just like natural birth) The verses that you choose are merely examples of people acting in their fallen nature as Romans 3:10-12 explains, "No one seeks...understands...all turn away" Your verses are examples of men turning away thus proving our point of Total Depravity, not your point of Resistable Grace.
Nice try, please play again soon.
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So who is it that is obliterating the truth? -
npetreley,
Just because most or even all did not come to Christ does not deny the fact that He gave them the occasion to trust in Jehovah Lord. The 'bondage of the will' did not willfully by God's determinism, damn them forever in Hell. No, the Bible says, ' . . .THEY have CHOSEN their own ways . . . ' [Isaiah 66:3 h] Here is a marked indication of human 'freedom of the will.'
If God was trying to project His Calvinistic flair He would have said, "I have made them choose My ways . . . ' [Isaiah 66:3 h] but He did not say this.
And if God ordains all human actions even including the sinner's sinning, then we find God becoming less than honest when He says in [Isaiah 66:4 g & h] ' . . . and THEY CHOSE that which I delighted not.' Also, under 66:4 g God did not say "I made them do evil before My eyes,' but rather He said, 'THEY did evil before My eyes, and CHOSE {by free will} that which I delighted not.' -
Why do free will advocates lean so heavily on John 3? Do you not read the whole section? Let's look at it:
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Again, we are the way we are because of the fall. Is God ultimately responsible for our state? Yes, since He foreknew it and allowed it. But why would God essentially bind us all over to disobedience? To damn us to hell? Quite the opposite.
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npetreley,
I agree with your view until you get to the word, 'believe.' No new birth has ever taken place without trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation; this inner work of eternal life is all of God, but believing is the fulcrum on which the experience turns. It is true that God does not have to change the will to send the sinner to Hell. That is why Luther was wrong about God readdressing the situation and binding the will, as in Bondage of the will.
Pizza: You buy pizza for a party but not all are required to eat it. The other day a Lehigh University I met with my wife for lunch. Usually it is pizza, but on that day I ate Strombole. God offers a changed life of grace to all who believe; everything hinges on whether that person believes and trusts in Christ as noted in John 3:15 and 18. We might hope that all will eat pizza and partake of everlasting life. -
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