Talking about the Flesh. We must bear the cross to wear the crown.
BBob,
Understanding the 1000yr Reign?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCGreek, Apr 22, 2008.
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BBob, -
You don't have to instruct me on that point either.
You realize, I'm sure, that this is a very tedious discussion when you won't respond to the points I make. Can you please speak to the topics:
1) When God did fulfill the covenants I mentioned.
2) When was Rev 19:14?
3) Where do you get that the MK precedes the rapture?
4) Do you even acknowledge that the wild branches may be cut out and the natural grafted back in?
skypair -
skypair -
When was Revelation written? -
For those who think the church is the kingdom or something like that, they must answer the question. -
How did you get flesh from that? -
No. The destruction of the temple in 70 AD is Mt 22:7. Do you see there that afterward more GUESTS were bidden (tribulation) and the king cast out the one who wore no wedding garment (Satan/AC)? Then the bride (church) was introduced to the GUESTS/Israel in the MK. Sorry -- no, you wouldn't see that either, would you?
How about this ---- God destroyed His own temple because Jesus was preached and believed by "all Israel" there and so they didn't need the temple anymore.
Oi Vey!
skypair -
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The fourth beast is the Roman Empire, of which I still believe has power on this earth today, which I believe will grow and the head of Rome will have more power than anyone on earth, but will be destroyed in the end.
You say, we must answer your questions, when you never answer mine.
1. Did Jesus come to Israel to present the "new" covenant.
2. Did the elect receive Jesus and came under the new covenant
3. Were there a remnant of Israel that are under the new covenant.
4. Though Israel be as the sand of the sea, will only a remnant be saved?
5. Were the Gentiles grafted into the original Olive tree with the Original branches?
6. Were the Original branches Israel?
7. If not, why did God give the promise to another people when He said it would be to Israel.
8. Can you give scripture, where God changed His promise to Israel and give the new covenant to the Gentiles?
BBob, -
I think it is shameful to say that Christ did not bring the "new" covenant to Israel, when scripture says, He came to His own. (which was Israel). You forget "as many as did receive Him".
Everything you speak of is an earthly and fleshly worship, which is how they worshipped God in the OT, (Book of Daniel). When Jesus came and died, He changed all that and put it in the heart, that where God seeks such to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. No more earthly temples, sacrifices, it is now by the Spirit.
Again, when you say that Jesus did not bring the "new" covenant to His own, you deny scripture. "as many as received Him, gave He them power to become the sons of God", that was the remnant of Israel, the "elect". The part that the Gentiles were grafted in too.
What you say, the Gentiles had nothing to be grafted in too.
Also, what you say, Israel did not have on the wedding garment and were cast into outer darkness also.
1John 1:
18: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1John 4:
3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Do you deny the scripture of 1John 4:3?
You believe God forknew all things. You believe the elect were predestinated. Tell me why did the Book of Jer. not tell us that Israel would reject the covenant that God was going to make with them?
BBob, -
Btw, if the kingdom is within us, like you say, Why were not apostles of Jesus, following the resurrection of Christ asking, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6)
What was Jesus answer?
""It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority" (v.7).
Neither Jesus nor his disciples thought the kingdom was present. Am I missing something here?
1. Israel rejection of her Messiah was part of God's plan.
2. Within the church age, a remnant from among Israel will be saved, but this in no way annuls God's future plan for Israel.
3. Israelites who are saved in the church age are a remnant, and so too will be those saved during the tribulation period, beginning with the 144,000.
4. Well, Paul himself says that not all Israel is spiritual Israel (Rom 2:28, 29; 9:6).
5. The original branches are Israel, but God didn't give the promises promised to Israel to the Gentiles.
God's promises to Israel were unilateral not bilateral. Israel did nothing to receive them, and Israel can do nothing to lose them.
6. Gentiles were promised to be blessed from the new covenant (Ps 18:49).
Here is something else to consider: Paul says:
"Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!" (Rom 11:11, 12)
God still has a future for Israel beyond this church age. -
Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
Here is Paul speaking of the same group that you speak of, saying that he might provoke to emulation (them whch are) my flesh, and might save some of them, during the church age.
Thes were not Gentiles, but were Israel;
Jhn 1:11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Don't you believe if they could receive Him in the "end times" that Jesus would of told them. Jesus said to them "Israelites", except you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins and where I am ye cannot come.
TC: Jesus tod the Israelites that, not the Gentiles.
If they died in their sins "Israelites" and could not be saved, then how could they be saved in the "end times"????? I mean, this is just as much "scripture" as anything you have quoted, is it not????
Again consider the scripture:
1John 4:
3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Do you deny the scripture of 1John 4:3?
You are teaching that all Israel will be saved.
They are teaching you will not.
The Christian Churches, with few exceptions, have rejected Israel's laws and adopted pagan customs instead. Rather than follow Yahweh's Sabbath and holy days (Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Penetecost, Trumpets, Yom Kippur, and Tabernacles) they have substituted pagan holidays like Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Lent, etc., and changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday. A sign of the true people of Yahweh - of Messianic/Christian Israel (the 144,000) - is that she will be obeying all the commandments (Torah) and not just those that suit her. This includes many other things too such as Yahweh's laws of sexual purity, marriage and dietary laws.
BTW; I believe the saints that arose after Christ arose and went into that Holy City, were the 144,000.
BBob, -
Bob,
You have a problem. You are "breathing out" but not "breathing in." That is, you willingly offer questions but won't answer any. Four things I asked you in my earlier post. You have yet to address one.
1) When God did fulfill the covenants I mentioned, particularly the one with Abraham?
2) When did Rev 19:14 occur?
3) Where do you get that the MK precedes the rapture?
4) Do you even acknowledge that the wild branches may be cut out and the natural grafted back in?
And when you breathe out, it is always the same misunderstood citations. Instance: "He came unto His own..." Yeah, but you never admit the rest of the same verse "... and His own received Him not!" BTW, NONE of us is saying Jesus didn't bring and offer the "new covenant" to His own people. You are purposely ignoring our protestations at this false accusation long enough!
Now I've known people to be "brainwashed" or "programmed" not to see or question things but they are usually from a) prison camps or b) cults. Surely that is not your case, is it?
When you say that we "cafeteria shop" through scriptures for dispensationalist prophecy (Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation), do you realize that only parts of those books ARE prophetic?
skypair -
Bob,
OK, here's what I "get" is your eschatology: the temple and city that then existed were destroyed in 70 AD marking the end of the OT, Jewish tribulation.
Ostensibly, then, Christ came as the armies of Rome and though Christianity was outlawed for another 230 years, yet the Romans "ushered in" Christ's kingdom.
This reign of Christ -- in which He has NO earthly power -- is followed by a Christian tribulation so that the church can "earn" its crown.
Next is the rapture.
Next the great tribulation (???) and GWT. Huh? Does the GT = the GWT? Is there any time element in there? like 3 1/2 years? Who lives in the GT? If the church is gone, what is the religion of the "remnant" that remains?
skypair -
Bob,
skypair -
I have know several like you and some who do not even belong to church. Are you a follower of Armstrong???
Rom 9:27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 11:5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Now, maybe you can rest, I have answered all your questions with scripture. Call your Jewish friends and find out what to say next.
BBob, -
BBob,
skypair -
skypair -
Ed
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