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Featured Univeralism?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 25, 2023.

  1. old regular

    old regular Member

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    Where did Jesus say I pray not for the world?
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    John 17:9-23

    John 17:9-23 KJV

    I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Do you believe he is going to reconcile a ''world'' he would not even pray for ? While he has power over all flesh only came to redeem those given to him of the Father.
    JOHN 17
    1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
     
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  2. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I actually have no answer.

    Let's look at something being you used asked, "Do you believe he is going to reconcile a ''world'' he would not even pray for ?"

    2 Cor 5:17-20 so that if any one is in Christ -- he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things. And the all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation, how that God was in [to, I added because of dative] Christ -- a [a, not really there] world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation, in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, 'Be ye reconciled to God;'

    How are we to understand, "world," in V 19

    Is John 17 about Jesus praying for those given, the ministration of, the reconciliation of the world, to himself?

    Consider also, Eph 1:9,10 YLT
    9 having made known to us [The ones Jesus prayed for in John 17] the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,
    10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Justification of life to all people refers to having the sin burden, what God has against the individual, removed such that a person goes from unholiness to holiness, from spiritually dead, separated from God to being spiritually alive, together with Christ. This reconciliation is not applied to all people, but must be "received" through credited faith in the truth.

    John uses the Greek word translated as "world" to refer to humanity, especially fallen humanity, or the corrupt value system of fallen humanity. God has not reconciled the world, He is reconciling fallen humanity, one sinner at a time. 2 Corinthians 5:19 Thus those reconciled, born anew, were part of the "world" (fallen humanity.)

    Romans 5:10 - we, born anew believers, were reconciled, not the whole world.
    2 Corinthians 5:18 - born anew believers were reconciled through Jesus Christ.
    2 Corinthians 5:20 - as Ambassadors of Christ we beg the lost, be reconciled to God. Thus not all have been reconciled.
     
    #83 Van, Aug 23, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2023
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    John 17:9 NASB
    “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but on the behalf of those whom You have given Me, because they are Yours;

    Here Jesus is praying for His disciples, those God had given Him, separating them from fallen humanity. However, if we look down to verse 20, Jesus also prayed for all those who would come to believe through the witness of these disciples.
     
  5. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    See the bold in your comment.

    "This reconciliation is not applied to all people, but must be "received" through credited faith in the truth."

    It seems you are saying that the reconciliation was accomplished for all humanity, universally, at the cross, but God (to use computer terms at the BB) does not hit the "Post" button until the individual human chooses (while still being spiritually dead) to exert his or her own faith to believe. Only if and when the human does their personal act of faith does God hit the "Post/Send" button to activate the reconciliation.

    It's sort of like Amazon having the package in the warehouse for you, but you have to put in the order first before you can receive it. But in this case, God has the reconciliation package ready for all humans, but each human has to put in the order, by faith, before God will send out the reconciliation package.

    That's how your bolded statement comes across. How is anyone supposed to agree with your statement and still believe in salvation by God's grace alone?
     
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  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    By believing in God's word. What condition was accomplished for all humanity? Christ became the means of reconciliation for fallen humanity. 1 John 2:2

    How do people receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's substitutionary sacrifice? God credits their faith in the truth as righteousness. Romans 4:23-25
     
  7. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    You didn't address my question or my point.

    Your view seems to teach that God's package of reconciliation is waiting at the warehouse until the human orders the package by pressing the "faith" button. Only then will God ship out the reconciliation package to the customer who asked for the package.

    That seems to be your view and teaching. Do you really think Romans 4:23-25 is teaching that?

    "But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification."

     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If God must credit our faith as righteousness, we do not "order the package." And sadly, I expect you are fully aware of that truth.
    So of course Romans 4:23-25 teaches my actual view, not your strawman fabrication

    Why is it that nobody seems ever to address the actual biblical position, but avoids the topic using misdirection?.

    Does God reconcile a lost person if their faith is not credited as righteousness. Nope.

    Everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have everlasting life, and it is God alone who decides who are the ones "believing into Him."
     
    #88 Van, Aug 23, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2023
  9. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    People address the actual biblical position and you reject it.
    My analogy of the ordered package is precisely what you are saying, which is not what Romans 4 is teaching. You are misunderstanding Paul in Romans 4 and then telling everyone else that they are wrong, or that they are reading a bad translation. Will there ever come a point where you review your own teaching to see if it is wrong? When no one agrees with you, that should be a red flag.
     
  10. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Look at the passage in Romans 4:13-25.

    For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

    Do you see it?
    God promised when He chose Abraham. Because God promised, God gave Abraham faith to believe. That faith, given to Abraham, is what made Abraham justified and righteous. It was not what Abraham did. It was what God, by grace, did for Abraham and it was the gift of faith that God gave Abraham, which made the sinner, Abraham, righteous in God's eyes. God became His Redeemer and faith was the seal of that redemption. A faith that is the gift of God, not of works so that no one can boast.

    Read the text and see what you are missing.
     
  11. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    Whoever is related to the first man is under condemnation. Whoever is related to the second man is under justification and life.

    Universalism is ridiculous.
     
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    All generalities, with no specifics.
    Did the poster's view of what Romans 4:23-25 is teaching appear in the post? Nope.
    Did I get charged with misunderstanding Paul? You bet.
    Am I telling "everyone else they are wrong? Nope, Calvinism is rejected by the majority of Baptists.
    Which passage or verse germane to this topic did I say was a "bad translation?

    Here is what I specifically said:
    If God must credit our faith as righteousness, we do not "order the package." And sadly, I expect you are fully aware of that truth.
    So of course Romans 4:23-25 teaches my actual view, not your strawman fabrication

    Why is it that nobody seems ever to address the actual biblical position, but avoids the topic using misdirection?.

    Does God reconcile a lost person if their faith is not credited as righteousness. Nope.

    Everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have everlasting life, and it is God alone who decides who are the ones "believing into Him." ​
     
  13. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    I quoted the text and highlighted the truth. If you see that as generalities then that is on you.
     
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  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Take a look at post #89. No quote and no highlight.

    Did God give faith to Abraham or was His faith [Abraham's faith] credited as righteousness? His faith.
    Was "counting His faith as righteousness" for Abraham's benefit alone? Nope, "but for our sake also."
    Our faith will be credited to us as righteousness who "believe in Him [God] who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord...."
     
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  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Your comments show that you really do not follow scripture but you do follow your calvinism.

    Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

    Gen 15:5 And He {God} took him {Abram} outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
    Gen 15:6 Then he {Abram} believed in the LORD; and He {God} reckoned it to him as righteousness.

    Notice what happened here. God made a promise, Abram believed it, God counted it as righteousness. God did not give Abram faith so as to believe that is just a calvinist view that is read into the text.
     
  16. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I agree. What relates one to the second man?

    Is it, the Spirit of Adoption?

    Does one just reach out and grab the Spirit of Adoption V 15 Rom 8 OR does God give it to whom He will as to those spoken of in verse 23
    And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

    Why not, we ourselves having the Spirit of adoption? Why the first-fruit ***?

    Does to use, first-fruit, imply other fruit also?
     
  17. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I notice that God chose Abram, made him a promise, and the response to what God did was believe. Why can you not see this as it stares at you and shouts at you from the passages you quote.
     
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  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Do yourself a favour and read through my earlier posts. You do not even know what I believe but in typical calvinist fashion you make up what you do not know so you can fight strawmen.

    What shouts from the passages I quote is that man has to freely believe in Christ before they are saved. They are not saved so they will believe as calvinism posits. I bet the fact that Abram had to freely believe before God "CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS" went right over your head.
     
  19. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Be honest. You read the Bible with man-centered glasses on, seeing man as the ruler of his destiny and controller of entrance to the Kingdom.
    Despite all the scriptural evidence, shown to you in the very verses you point at, you keep beating the drum of man, man, man.

    Question: Did God choose Abram to bless before or after Abram chose to obey by faith? What does the text say? You quoted it and it tells you that God chose Abram first.

    Question: If you could get rid of God as the King of Kings and replace Him with yourself, would you do it?
    You keep pounding the drum of man, man, man. What is it that makes you so enamoured with yourself and your choices, which you believe God credits as righteous?
    Why do you keep attempting to sweep God under the rug and then tell us that it's biblical and in scripture to do such a thing?
     
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Actually I read the bible without the calvinist glasses that you wear. Did I say that God did not call Abram, NO. But what the bible says and you ignore is "Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." Abram had to freely believe. God did not believe for him. So in your mind that would mean Abram had a man-centered faith. But God must have thought it was the correct type of faith as He reckoned as righteousness.

    Well since God reckoned Abrams faith as righteousness then I would think that can't be wrong. Plus look at the verses I posted and see what they say. You are fighting against scripture so you can hold to your calvinism. You have your priorities wrong.

    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

    Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

    Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
     
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