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Featured Unscriptural - what does it mean?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No. You're gomming it up. Not talking about salvation, we're discussing justification. We're saved because we've been justified:

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Still tweeting and still gomming. Any mention of us being justified by our faith 'alone' in any of those?
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    NONE mention good works required to be done to be saved, correct?
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Salvation/Justification same thing!
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yes. "The doers of the law shall be justified" is descriptive of those fulfilling Matthew 7:12, Romans 13:8-10 and other passages, even down to the thoughts and imagination.

    What's the justification for adding to the gospel the idea of justification by [our] faith alone?
     
    #66 kyredneck, Jun 20, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
  7. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I think you guys have missed that the saved have the Holy Spirit.

    We are new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15), born from above (John 3:3-5), and have spiritual fruit (Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 5:9). We have been set free from the supervision of the Law (Galatians 3:23-25). The Law is written on our hearts now (Hebrews 8:7-12). We uphold the Law by not sinning (Romans 3:31, Romans 8:1-17, 1 John 2:28-3:10), sin being defined by the Law (Romans 7:7), because we have that Law on our hearts (Ephesians 4:24).

    How can one who has the Law written on their heart continue in their sins like they do not have the Spirit? We still will do the wrong thing, but we are saddened by it, repent, and do not practice at it. However, this new life by the Spirit means we will do things like love our neighbor and God. To the point, that by our works we will survive the scary judgments we are warned of such as the Parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31-46). Otherwise, our actions show we do not have the Spirit to begin with and are not legitimate children.
     
  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    kyredneck asked: What's the justification for adding to the gospel the idea of justification by [our] faith alone?

    That's right. Do them and you will live. But no one does them, and the law has you guilty through and through, and there is no commandment given by which you can be made unguilty.

    Justified in this case means found worthy. Not made worthy. Moving on . . .

    And 'justified' in these cases always means being made unguilty. You were guilty, now you're not. And so, it is God that justifieth. And God does that through faith. As it is written, Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

    It is God that justifieth, not your works.

    Now, answer my question.
     
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  9. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I would read post #67, because we have been made worthy on account of faith, but we are being made worthy on account of the indwelling Spirit, until we are made worthy in His presence. I'm not saying works bring the Holy Spirit or get us forgiveness, just that you went a little too far with your statement.
     
  10. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    You're talking about sanctification. Not justification.
     
  11. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    True, thank you.

    I think kyredneck has a non theological definition of justification though, that confused me. His definition seems to combine the efforts of sanctification and justification.
     
  12. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Kyredneck, I know my terms are off form yours, so I'll go there.

    Can you explain justification and sanctification? Because I think you are using a unique definition of both, that I would not find in a systematic theology. I think you are trying to adhere to a literal reading of the bible, but the terms used in theology may be a little different than the ones you are using.
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I did. Post #66.

    Considering you missed the post, I agree with everything you posted.

    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4

    Justified by His blood, 'atonement justification', our faith has zilch to do with it. Even after all the wickedness Israel had done after God had redeemed them out of the Land of Bondage (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

    He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21

    Even in unbelief and disobedience they were as righteous as Christ in the eyes of God.

    Justification is NOT by our faith alone.
     
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Aaron said:
    I said:
    I'm confused as to why you're confused.


     
  15. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Since this thread has went completely off topic - it will be closed no sooner that 4 pm EST
     
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  16. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I understand better now. On justification, I am used to systematic theology more than the Word, unfortunately.

    Most theology says there are two types of righteousness we have. The righteousness from the Cross is one category (justification), while the righteousness of our works is another (sanctification). I think what you are saying is that our sanctification is a form of being justified before God.

    To use more systematic theology language; If you don't have both justification and sanctification in a person, that is the righteousness that comes by faith that gives us the deposit of the Holy Spirit, and then that Spirit working himself out in our works; Then you are not able to claim the status of justified and saved before God. I would have to agree with this, if that is what you mean. The Spirit produces change, and that changed nature will pass the Judgment of our works, which will be sorely tested during a Judgment which we are warned of repeatedly in the bible. The Parable of the Sheep and Goats is one example of that future Judgment.

    Now, certain ministries say that this is untrue, only faith is needed, faith being the evidence of salvation and the Spirit, not a changed life. I find them to be in the minority online, and I disagree with them heartily.

    Also would you mind posting all your pertinent bible verses in one post? I would love to learn more about how the bible talks about justification and sanctification.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    YES! Two 'aspects' of many things. The eternal things that we are passive in, the temporal things that we are active in. That's the beginning of 'rightly dividing'. Far too much to even touch upon now, but excellent point. :)
     
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