Watch for the beast!

You keep insisting that the Great Tribulation has not happened yet. You base this on the assumption that those events are not recorded in history. You insist that we must read Revelation literally. Having said that, you do not take the very words that Jesus spoke literally.

After Jesus told His disciples that the Temple would be totally destroyed within a generation, they asked Him what would be the sign of His coming, and of the end of the age (Matt 24:3). The Disciples linked the desolation of the Temple, the sign of His coming, and the end of the Age to the same time period. Since Jesus did not correct them, this confirms they are in the same time period.

Jesus gave several clues about when this would happen. "This generation" will see "all these things" take place (Matt 24:34). Every time Jesus spoke of "this generation", He meant their generation. While I take this literally, you change it to mean a future generation. We need to read what the text actually says, not what we think it means. In Matt 24:16, we see this is a localized judgment because those in Judea are warned to flee to the mountains. All of the signs that Jesus spoke of were fulfilled before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Jesus uses the second person plural (you) throughout this discourse. Nothing in the discourse indicates a shift to an audience of a different era. Based on what Jesus actually said, "this generation" can only refer to the generation then living, and no other.

 

No, YOU don't take His words literally, when it's easily shown they ARE literal. Just carefully read Matt. 24. Some of those very things are occurring RIGHT NOW. He said wars, pestilences, & earthquakes will come (They have, & are still coming!) He said of those things that "the end (of the age) is not yet", that they were just "the beginning of sorrows".

And He said the great trib won't come til after the AOD is committed. Read it for yourself in any valid Bible version.

There was never a time when the flight of Christians from Jerusalem had to be immediate, or they'd die. And that'll be when the AOD occurs. We KNOW- not guess-that the AOD has NOT yet occurred. There must be a temple for it to occur in.

And then, Jesus said, "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THOSE DAYS" He will return, in great power & glory. We see more description of it in Rev. 19. And we see that the beast will be in power then.

Those things simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED! But Jesus plainly said what they were, & that they WILL happen! Prets simply CANNOT get by the FACTS that the beast hasn't yet come, nor has the great trib, nor has the AOD been committed.

That's why I say we should watch for the beast to come, as he must come before Jesus returns. All that is plainly in Scripture.

 

I started this thread because I hear umpteen preachers on the radio say, "The Lord can come any minute" or similar.

But we see in Matt. 24 that the AOD & trib must occur first, and the beast be in power. Now, when ths beast's coming is imminent, then we Christians should both preach the Gospel more fervently than ever to reach as many as we can, as the rapture will be imminent, liable to occur at any time. It'll certainly be before the beast begins to persecute Christians.

But Jesus won't be coming til those events occur. He said as much Himself.

 

By the Rapture you mean the Warning? Because the Warning takes place at the height of the tribulation as the 6th Seal. Then the Punishment.

 

Which events of Matthew 24 did not happen before AD 70? The Book of Acts records earthquakes and famines. We know that the Roman Empire experienced plenty of wars, which naturally leads to more rumors of wars. Those were the beginning of sorrows, but the end of the age came when the armies surrounded Jerusalem. According to Daniel and Luke, this brought the AOD. Jesus warned His immediate that when THEY see this happen, those in Judea must flee to the mountains. This shows it was a localized event, not worldwide tribulation. The one on his housetop must not come down to take things out. Pray your flight not happen in winter or on a Sabbath. These were warnings for their society. It would not be possible for us to escape a worldwide tribulation by fleeing to the mountains, but those who heeded Christ's warning fled to Pella. We don't have flat roofs, nor are we concerned with Sabbath laws. Understanding the context is key to understanding the prophecies.

You are so stuck on the belief that those events have not happened yet that it clouds how you read Scripture. Your method of interpretation of these passages is mishandling the text which leads to misinterpretation. You are putting your own ideas into the text, making it mean what you want. True exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. Before you accuse me of reading my interpretation into the text, I will point out that I do not change the words of Jesus nor of any other Scripture. My views are based on proper hermeneutics. That is how I KNOW that the Great Tribulation, AOD, Beast, etc. have already come to pass. Any other view is to deny what the Scriptures clearly tell us.

 

No, the rapture will be when Jesus calls all the dead saints & all the living saints to Himself. We will all be "translated" into our new bodies. Anyone becoming saved after the rapture will have to go thru the trib, or be killed in it, or be killed by the beast's forces.

 

What events of Matt. 24 have NOT yet happened?
The abomination of desolation.
The great trib.
Most importantly, THE RETURN OF JESUS!
I, and many others, have pointed out that Jesus said He'd return in great power & glory IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIB ENDED! Therefore, if it's already occurred, He's some 1950 years overdue!
And He won't return til the beast is in power. Rev. 19 proves that.

Actually, YOU'RE stuck on the false idea that those events HAVE happened when history and reality proves they HAVEN'T!

OK, Jesus said, in Matt. 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. You may read Rev. 19:11-21 to see the beast will be in power & will try to fight against Him. And you may read on in Rev to see Jesus doesn't leave again.

So that's the burning question, the one that makes both partial & full preterism false: IF THE ESCHATOLOGICAL EVENTS HAVE ALREADY OCCURRED, WHY ISN'T JESUS PHYSICALLY HERE, RULING THE WORLD????????????????????????????? If you believe the Bible, you MUST ask yourself that question ! !

 

In Matthew 24:34, Jesus said "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place". That would be the generation He was speaking to. "All these things" are everything He was talking about since He told them that the Temple would be destroyed. Unless we have some very old disciples still living, all those things took place as Jesus said they would. The Beast was in power when Jesus "returned" in judgment on Israel in AD 70.

The difference between partrial and full preterism is that Partial Preterists know that all eschatological events have not happened yet. The physical return of Jesus is still in our future.

 

No, the beast hasn't come yet. And Jesus spoke ONLY OF HIS PHYSICAL RETURN. He is SPIRITUALLY here whenever two or more are gathered in His name. He did NOT "return in judgment" in 70 AD. He caused/allowed the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" of Luke 21.

And I presented clear proof that the AOD hasn't yet occurred,

I presented the question that no preterist, partial or full, can answer....IF ALL THE PROPHECIES ARE FULFILLED, HOW COME JESUS ISN'T PHYSICALLY HERE ??????????????

Partial & full preterism have one thing in common-THEY'RE BOTH FALSE !

 

Of course the Beast has already come, since Jesus said He would come within the generation of His immediate audience. What Jesus actually said was "the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory". The sign was the destruction of the Temple. "They will see" - the 1st Century Jews will understand the judgment come upon them. "Cloud" language is often used to describe major events of judgment. The context of Matthew 24 makes it clear that it all refers to the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem. As I've pointed out many times, you have only presented your view that the AOD hasn't happened yet. You can't prove something that isn't actually true.

Only Full Preterists believe all the prophecies have been fulfilled. Partial Preterists such as myself do not make this claim.

 

No, He did NOT say that. He said "this generation", meaning the one that'll see those events begin. And I provided PROOF that Nero was not the beast. And the AOD was not committed before the temple was destroyed, or it'd be prominent in Jewish history, as was its forerunner in the 160s BC.

No sign of the Son of Man has yet appeared in the sky, let alone the Son of man Himself. Nor has the sun & moon been dimmed worldwide, along with a great meteor shower.

WHAT A STRETCH! The destruction of the temple didn't happen in the sky ! ! ! ! Nor was Jesus then seen!

My view is based upon Scripture, and cold, hard history. Scripture is always right, and if Scripture says something will occur, then it WILL occur, to the letter. The prophesied eschatological events have NOT yet occurred, or they'd be in history. But they WILL occur, to the letter.

I've repeatedly asked you to show us the occurrence of those events in history, & you can't even come close. When they DO occur, it'll be EXACTLY AS WRITTEN IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE. It won't be "almost as written", etc. They simply HAVEN'T HAPPENED yet. The proof speax for itself.

So once again-If they've been fulfilled, including the AOD & great trib, HOW COME JESUS ISN'T PHYSICALLY HERE, RULING THE WORLD??????????????????????????? Remember, He said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIB!

 

If that was what Jesus meant, that would have been what He said. The plain meaning of the text shows the disciples understood Jesus to mean their generation, not some future generation. Jesus often had to correct their understanding on issues, but it was not necessary here. Surely Jesus would not intentionally deceive His disciples. Your "proof" goes "poof" because Jesus described how they were to recognize the AOD - when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. His words trump what you think His words meant. Certainly the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70 is very prominent in Jewish history.

It's so odd that you do not take Christ's words about "this generation" and "soon" literally, yet you insist this is to be fulfilled literally. The sun, moon, stars, etc. have represented political events all throughout Scripture. Since these Jewish Believers were familiar with this apocalyptic language and they never took it literally, it is only natural Jesus used the same type of language. To switch from symbolic to "literal" language would involve a big paradigm shift. Jesus would have had to explain that the events He described would not really happen in their generation, or leave them misunderstanding what He meant.

To the contrary, my view is based upon Scripture and history. These events did occur exactly according to prophecy.

Once again - The AOD and Great Tribulation have long since past. Jesus "came" in judgment, just as God "came" in judgment in Isaiah 13:9-13. Notice the symbolic language used for judgment on Babylon. I could bring up several more examples, but this one makes the point. And again, His actual 2nd Coming is in our future. When you truly understand Scripture, everything becomes clear.

 

One prob with your "take"-THE EVENTS HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED !

Typical pret escape attempt-"It's symbolic, not literal". The TRUE explanation is that those events haven't happened yet.

OK, then, who was the beast? (It's PROVEN it wasn't Nero.) Who was the false prophet? (Saying it was Israel is absurd.)

OK, then, once again-WHY ISN'T JESUS PHYSICALLY PRESENT, RULING THE WORLD? He said He'd come in great power & glory immediately after the trib.

That was NOT His coming in great power & glory as He said Himself He will do. He didn't come; He allowed/caused those events to happen.

His dealing with the 2nd Babylon is a different matter entirely.

And His actual 2nd coming is indeed in the future, same as is the beast, AOD, & great trib. Remember, REV. 19 PLAINLY SAYS THE BEAST WILL BE IN POWER WHEN HE RETURNS. You can't have it both ways! If the beast has already come & gone, then Rev. 19 is wrong. If Rev. 19 is correct, preterism is wrong. I choose Rev. 19 as being 100% right.

 

So out of nowhere the passage goes from literal to symbolic on the most glorious and triumphant part? No, these events have not yet occurred.

 

The big problem with your take is that you are changing what Jesus actually said. Jesus spoke of "this generation" five other times in Matthew, and every time He meant the generation then living. So, now you want to make an exception when Jesus could have made it so clear if He meant anything else. Why wouldn't He say "that generation", "they", "the ones living when this happens", etc.? If He did mean the generation He was speaking to (and I believe He did), and if those events did not happen within their generation (which you believe), the He would be a false prophet.

The Beast from the Sea was the Roman Empire, personified in Nero. The False Prophet was Apostate Israel. Revelation 11:8 tells us that the bodies of the Two Witnesses will lie in the "great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified". This could only be Jerusalem. In Revelation 17:1-5 describes a Scarlet Woman riding a Scarlet Beast. She was judged for her adulteries. Rome couldn't commit adultery because Jerusalem is God's bride. The Scarlet Woman and Scarlet Beast is a picture of their alliance.

Same question gets the same answer. Jesus came in judgment upon Jerusalem in AD 70. He will physically return in our future.

Rome was in power when Christ returned in judgment. Of course Rev 19 is 100% correct, just as the entire Bible is. The issue is one of interpretation. Rev 19 does not pose a problem for the Preterist view.

 

Not out of nowhere. I used that passage from Isaiah as an example of symbolic language when God was bringing judgment on various nations.

What's your take on why Jesus said "this generation" if He meant a future generation? Why would He have told His immediate audience "you will see" these things if He meant "they will see these things". The time indicators, as well as the fact that Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed in AD 70, support the Preterist view. This was a localized judgment, not a future worldwide series of calamities.

 

No, YOU'RE mis-interpreting what Jesus actually meant. Proof: the prophesied events haven't yet occurred. Since Jesus is always 100% right, they WILL happen just as He said.

In your desperation to support your guru Gentry, you make-believe that some past events were fulfillments of Jesus' prophecies when they didn't even come close. I posted proof of why Nero wasn't the beast. We know what the AOD will be, and it didn't occur in the old temple before it was trashed. But, as Jesus is always 100% right, it WILL occur. The Jews will build a new temple in J, & the AOD will occur there.

No; they'll each be one man.Scripture always refers to each of them as "he", singular. Neither Rome nor Israel was cast alive into hell, as the beast & FP will be upon Jesus' return.

No argument here.

The harlot represents Rome. Proof: Rev. 17:18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

Same WRONG answer. Jesus did NOT come then. He said,in Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

None of those things occurred then, as history plainly shows, so the trib didn't occur then. You have no argument against that combo of Scripture & history, no matter what your guru Gentry told you.

...Except that Christ did NOT return then. If He had, history would NOT have missed it! Remember, Jesus said the WHOLE WORLD will see His return, and that's the ONLY return of Himself He mentions!

There's only ONE possible interp for this:Rev. 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So, again...IF THOSE EVENTS HAVE ALREADY OCCURRED, WHY ISN'T JESUS HERE NOW, RULING THE WORLD?

This PROVES the beast will be in power when Jesus returns, as well as proving none of the other events have yet occurred, either. Neither you, nor Gentry, nor any other pret can get past yet another combo of Scripture and history. Your preterism is as defunct as the Confederate States of America.

 

The generation is the generation of the Great Commission. Jesus commanded the Apostles to go preach and baptise to all the nations. This is the Apostolic generation. Once each man knows God and needs no teacher, this will be the end of the apostolic generation. The ones who are sent.

 

First, not all who heard those words saw all of those things come to pass so your interpretation is wrong from the gate. You ignore other uses of the word in Greek that make more sense in light of this fact. Race or Kind.

① those exhibiting common characteristics or interests, race, kind
William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 191.

 

Also, @Lodic I am sure you agree that a large part of Revelation are referring to the same events just in more detail? That being the case, if Jesus meant his disciples would all see it, what would John write Revelation years after many of them were already dead? Unless you argue an early writing date which is bogus.