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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Strannik, Feb 22, 2021.

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  1. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    I could say that double heresy, but I still want to clarify, WHAT IS IT?
     
  2. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    Excuse me, but I am speaking from the words of the Calvinists themselves. If I misunderstood something, it means that something was not conveyed to me.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Double Predestination holds that God determined to save some lost sinners for His glory, and also determined to have lost sinners for His glory..

    Single predestination holds that God directly determined to save out some, but bypassed the remainder, did not directly determined damnation..
     
  4. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    I read the creed of 1689 and found nothing to refute my beliefs about Calvinism.
     
  5. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    Well I have a question here:
    "Do they smoke, drink, or do anything else?"
    This just shows that God created people just to amuse His pride.
     
  6. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Yes but they didn't kick you out of their own free will, you were predestinated to be kicked out.
     
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  7. Garrett20

    Garrett20 Member

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    Consider this:

    “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 (NKJV)

    Scripture teaches that the wrath of God abides on all unless they repent and believe. Also, remember that we are not bound by God’s sovereignty, we are bound to sin.

    Peace to you.
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You ignored what I posted but now look for an answer to different questions...

    1]Do you think God actually saves?

    2]Do you think he only potentially saves?

    3]Do you think he cannot save all He intends to save?

    you said;
    People choose many things, but there is no such thing as free will. Man has a self will that is bound by sin, which means they will never choose God. God has chosen a multitude to save.
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Strannik,

    1"]I read the creed of 1689 and found nothing to refute my beliefs about Calvinism.[/QUOTE]

    This is what you posted;
    I asked that you consult the 1689, you say you did, but it clearly says this;;;
    Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
    1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; y; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
    ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

    So the confession of faith written by Calvinists says the opposite of what you accuse it of and puts you as the one who is blaming God
    for man's sin.
    Explain how you say you read this and did not notice this statement?
    I do not think you are reading with understanding, but rather it seems more likely you are repeating things you heard on a bad website second hand.

    Each one of us is free to believe or not believe whatever we think is there, but if you go on the offensive great assured there are several here who will offer correction, and if need be return fire.
     
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  10. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    You confuse the sinful nature with the duty to sin.
    Although it is said that we are slaves of sin, but even slaves rebel against slaveholders, and people do not always sin, but sometimes even sinners do something good.

    Jesus did not just as often set the example of the Gentiles, who certainly went to perdition.
     
  11. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    [QUOTE = "Iconoclast, post: 2684426, member: 10065"] Вы проигнорировали то, что я опубликовал, но теперь ищите ответы на другие вопросы ...

    1] Как вы думаете, действительно ли Бог спасает?

    2] Как вы думаете, он только потенциально спасает?

    3] Как вы думаете, он не может спасти все, что собирается спасти?

    ты сказал;


    Люди выбирают многое, но свободы воли не существует. У человека есть своя воля, связанная грехом, а это значит, что он никогда не выберет Бога. Бог избрал множество людей для спасения. [/ЦИТИРОВАТЬ]

    ===========================================================
    1) God really saves. Example. For example an ordinary lifeguard really saves by making all their efforts
    -------------------------------
    2) God saves not potentially, but literally by making ALL His efforts and doing everything that is possible.
    Example: the rescuer applies everything that he can apply. All your navok and all your aborudovanie.
    ---------------------
    3) God can save everything He is going to .
    An example is a highly professional lifeguard. He has a lot of experience in rescue and saves everyone he wants to save.
    =================================
    And now the main problem of the Lifeguard and the Lifeguard. People themselves do not want to accept salvation. They don't trust the Lifeguard. They are afraid to leave their property and
     
  12. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    This is what you posted;


    I asked that you consult the 1689, you say you did, but it clearly says this;;;
    Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
    1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; y; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
    ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

    So the confession of faith written by Calvinists says the opposite of what you accuse it of and puts you as the one who is blaming God
    for man's sin.
    Explain how you say you read this and did not notice this statement?
    I do not think you are reading with understanding, but rather it seems more likely you are repeating things you heard on a bad website second hand.


    Each one of us is free to believe or not believe whatever we think is there, but if you go on the offensive great assured there are several here who will offer correction, and if need be return fire.

    [/QUOTE]
    About the free will of man.
    3. Man, having fallen into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability of the will to strive for the spiritual good that accompanies salvation. Therefore, by nature, man, being completely disinclined to spiritual good and being dead in sin, is not able by his own power to convert himself or prepare himself for salvation.
    =====================================

    There are obvious lies on people already. A simple life example shows that non-believers or pagans in general are able to do good and help those in need or selflessly save them in trouble or do some other good.
     
  13. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    This is what you posted;


    I asked that you consult the 1689, you say you did, but it clearly says this;;;
    Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
    1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; y; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
    ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

    So the confession of faith written by Calvinists says the opposite of what you accuse it of and puts you as the one who is blaming God
    for man's sin.
    Explain how you say you read this and did not notice this statement?
    I do not think you are reading with understanding, but rather it seems more likely you are repeating things you heard on a bad website second hand.


    Each one of us is free to believe or not believe whatever we think is there, but if you go on the offensive great assured there are several here who will offer correction, and if need be return fire.

    [/QUOTE]
    On God's Decree

    4. These angels and men, who are thus predestined and ordained, are marked in a special and unchangeable way; and their number is so definite and precise that it can neither be increased nor diminished. 1

    1) Mt 22: 1-14; John 13: 18; Rom 11: 5-6; 1 Corinthians 7: 20-22; 2 Timothy 2:19.
    =================================================

    Here, for example, every passage of Scripture is perverted just to build it under a favorable interpretation, although there is nothing in common with what is said in paragraph 4.
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    About the free will of man.
    3. Man, having fallen into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability of the will to strive for the spiritual good that accompanies salvation. Therefore, by nature, man, being completely disinclined to spiritual good and being dead in sin, is not able by his own power to convert himself or prepare himself for salvation.
    =====================================

    There are obvious lies on people already. A simple life example shows that non-believers or pagans in general are able to do good and help those in need or selflessly save them in trouble or do some other good.[/QUOTE]
    prov21:4

    you need to base whatever you believe on scriptural grounds keeping in mind scripture does contradict itself.
    Could you show for example how 2 tim
    1:9 does not say what it says?
    you suggest it is perverted
     
  15. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    prov21:4

    you need to base whatever you believe on scriptural grounds keeping in mind scripture does contradict itself.
    Could you show for example how 2 tim
    1:9 does not say what it says?
    you suggest it is perverted[/QUOTE]
    Well, I have already shown you many times the fallacy of your judgments and showed that God is referring to the free will of people (Luke 5: 20) :

    To believe in Him, - Mar. 11: 23, John.14:1, 1 John 4: 1, James 2: 1, and so on

    To repent, - Matthew 3: 2, Matthew 4:17, Mark 1: 15, Acts.2:38 , Acts.3:19 and so on

    To bring forth worthy fruits-Luke 3: 8 (this, it should be noted, was generally said to the unborn).
    ===========================================

    So as we can see your belief that non-Christians have no will of their own is wrong.
    ===================================================
    11 For there is no face-to-face with God.
    12 Those who have sinned without the law will be outlaws and will perish; but those who have sinned under the law will be condemned under the law
    13 (for the hearers of the law are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified,
    14 For when the Gentiles, who have no law, do what is lawful by nature, they, who have no law, are their own law:
    15 They show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, as their conscience and their thoughts testify, now accusing, now justifying one another)
    16 On the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secret works of men through Jesus Christ.
    (Rom. 2: 11-16)
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    In this passage of Scripture, we clearly see that the unbelievers and the unregenerate still have their own will to do good that is pleasing to God, even though they do not live according to the Law of God.
     
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    February 26 Devotional from John Piper

    . . . among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (Ephesians 2:3)

    All of God’s wrath, all of the condemnation we deserve, was poured out on Jesus. All of God’s demands for perfect righteousness were fulfilled by Christ. The moment we see (by grace!) this Treasure, and receive him in this way, his death counts as our death and his condemnation as our condemnation and his righteousness as our righteousness, and God becomes 100% irrevocably for us forever in that instant.

    The question this leaves unanswered is, “Doesn’t the Bible teach that in eternity God set his favor on us in election?”

    In other words, thoughtful people ask, “Did God only become 100% for us in the moment of faith and union with Christ and justification? Did he not become 100% for us in the act of election before the foundation of the world?” Paul says in Ephesians 1:4–5, “[God] chose us in [Jesus] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ.”

    Is God then not 100% for the elect from eternity? The answer hangs on the meaning of “100%.”

    With the term “100%” I am trying to preserve a biblical truth found in several passages of Scripture. For example, in Ephesians 2:3, Paul says that Christians were “children of wrath” before they were made alive in Christ Jesus: “We all once lived [among the sons of disobedience] in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”

    Paul is saying that, before our new birth — before we were made alive together with Christ — God’s wrath was on us. The elect were under wrath. This changed when God made us alive in Christ Jesus and awakened us to see the truth and beauty of Christ so that we received him as the one who died for us and as the one whose righteousness is counted as ours because of our union with Jesus. Before this happened to us, we were under God’s wrath. Then, because of faith in Christ and union with him, all God’s wrath was removed and he then became, in that sense, 100% for us.

    Therefore, exult in the truth that God will keep you. He will get you to the end because in Christ he is 100% for you. And therefore, getting to the end does not make God to be 100% for you. It is the effect of the fact that he is already 100% for you.


    When God Becomes 100% for Us
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Well, I have already shown you many times the fallacy of your judgments and showed that God is referring to the free will of people (Luke 5: 20) :

    To believe in Him, - Mar. 11: 23, John.14:1, 1 John 4: 1, James 2: 1, and so on

    To repent, - Matthew 3: 2, Matthew 4:17, Mark 1: 15, Acts.2:38 , Acts.3:19 and so on

    To bring forth worthy fruits-Luke 3: 8 (this, it should be noted, was generally said to the unborn).
    ===========================================

    So as we can see your belief that non-Christians have no will of their own is wrong.
    ===================================================
    11 For there is no face-to-face with God.
    12 Those who have sinned without the law will be outlaws and will perish; but those who have sinned under the law will be condemned under the law
    13 (for the hearers of the law are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified,
    14 For when the Gentiles, who have no law, do what is lawful by nature, they, who have no law, are their own law:
    15 They show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, as their conscience and their thoughts testify, now accusing, now justifying one another)
    16 On the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secret works of men through Jesus Christ.
    (Rom. 2: 11-16)
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    In this passage of Scripture, we clearly see that the unbelievers and the unregenerate still have their own will to do good that is pleasing to God, even though they do not live according to the Law of God.[/QUOTE]
    Not one of your passages mentions the will being free
    You show nothing but error,but you are content with your error.
    You do not want interaction at this point, you think you are okay.
    No need to waste time here.
     
  18. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    Not one of your passages mentions the will being free
    You show nothing but error,but you are content with your error.
    You do not want interaction at this point, you think you are okay.
    No need to waste time here.[/QUOTE]

    Good. In order not to waste time, you just answer me, if you do not have the will to choose something, then why are you just asked to do something that automatically implies the presence of free will?

    If you have no will, how can you fulfill the command to choose your faith voluntarily?

    If you have no will, how can you voluntarily repent?

    If you have no will, how can you voluntarily bring forth the fruits of repentance of your own free will?
    ====================================================
    You reject the obvious.
     
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Who wrote the above comment? It looks like something Iconoclast may have written.

    ???
    You confuse free will with freedom of expression. Slaves can freely express themselves, yet never be free of their master.

    You misunderstand Joshua 29, therefore you imagine the issue is choosing faith when the issue is choosing the Mosaic Covenant or rejecting the covenant.

    Again, you are misunderstanding the fact that humans are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Repentance is shown to the Master of the house whom you have wronged.

    You misunderstand and think that human volition equals freedom to escape the bonds of sin by your own choice. There is no escape, unless a Savior comes and sets you free. In that case, you become the bond servant of Christ, your Redeemer.

    ??? What is it that is obvious???
     
  20. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    What and who blinds the minds of those who do not believe?
    1 John 2:15-17
    15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
    16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
    17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

    Who is the prince of this world?
    John 14:30
    I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

    2 Corinthians 4
    3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    God will shine in our hearts only if He has determined to save us, at the proper time, God then reveals Christ inside of us.
    in effect, we are born again, and then He is shining in our heart.
    We have nothing to do with this. God's Spirit moves where He wills. You see the effects of the wind, but it is an invisible force. The wind blows where IT WISHES.
    And you can not perceive-understand the kingdom of God, as in who Christ is unless your first Born Again.

    3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

    5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    Other than Christ setting you free from sin, your not free, no humans are truly free, either your slaves of sin, or slaves of God.
    Every person has a master that rules over them.

    1 Corinthians 12
    3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

    Since this is true

    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Notice, you cant believe and say so except by the Spirit of God.
    Your believing unto salvation is entirely then the gift of God.
     
    #39 Scott Downey, Feb 27, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
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  21. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    1). " Who wrote the above comment? It looks like Iconoclast wrote something."
    ------------------
    I have some error in the message there. It seems that part of someone else's message got into it.
    ===============================
    2). ???
    You confuse free will with freedom of speech. Slaves can express themselves freely, but they can never be free from their master.
    ----------------------
    It seems that you are confusing something, although freedom of speech also depends on free will. If you don't have the will, you can't say a free word.
    And in the Scriptures there are calls to act according to the will, and not just a request for ranting.
    ======================================
    3) why is the same not true. Without the will and desire to believe in Moses, one cannot choose between the Law of Moses and the old life.
    ============================
    4). You don't understand the fact that Jesus is calling for a change of master.
    ---------
    30 When He said this, many believed in Him.
    31 Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, " If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples.",
    32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.
    33 They answered him:
    34 Jesus answered them, " Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is a servant of sin."
    35 But the servant does not abide in the house forever; the son abides forever.
    36 Therefore, if the Son sets you free, you will truly be free.
    37 I know that you are the seed of Abraham, but you seek to kill me, because my word does not fit in you.
    38 I say what I have seen with my Father, but you do what you have seen with your father.
    39 They answered and said to him, " Our father is Abraham." Jesus said to them, " If you were the children of Abraham, you would do the works of Abraham."
    40 And now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth, which I have heard from God: Abraham did not do this.
    41 You do the works of your father. And they said to him, " We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, God."
    42 Jesus said to them, " If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and came; for I did not come from Myself, but He sent Me."
    43 Why do you not understand my speech? Because you can't hear My words.
    44 Your father is the devil, and you want to fulfill the lusts of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and did not stand in the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks his own, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
    45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me.
    46 Which of you will accuse me of unrighteousness? But if I speak the truth, why do you not believe me?
    47 He who is of God listens to the words of God. You do not listen because you are not of God.
    48 To this the Jews answered and said to him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan, and that you have a demon?"
    49 Jesus answered, " I have no demon; but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me."
    50 But I do not seek my glory: there is one who seeks and judges.
    51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever keepeth my word, he shall never see death.
    (John.8:30-51)

    16 Do you not know that to whom you give yourselves as servants to obey, you are also servants to whom you obey, or servants of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?
    17 Thank God that you, who were formerly servants of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the way of teaching to which you have given yourself up.
    18 But when you were delivered from sin, you became servants of righteousness.
    19 I speak according to the reasoning of men, for the sake of the weakness of your flesh. As you have given your members as servants to uncleanness and iniquity for unrighteous works, so now present your members as servants of righteousness for holy works.
    20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness.
    21 What fruit did you have then? These things, which you are now ashamed for the end of those things is death.
    22 But now that you have been delivered from sin and become servants to God, your fruit is holiness, and the end is eternal life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death, and the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    (Rom. 6: 16-23)
     
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