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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Strannik, Feb 22, 2021.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Good. In order not to waste time, you just answer me, if you do not have the will to choose something, then why are you just asked to do something that automatically implies the presence of free will?

    If you have no will, how can you fulfill the command to choose your faith voluntarily?

    If you have no will, how can you voluntarily repent?

    If you have no will, how can you voluntarily bring forth the fruits of repentance of your own free will?
    ====================================================
    You reject the obvious.[/QUOTE]
    I did not say man has no will evidently you're not reading the post so this no sense to answer you if you're not going to read the posts why should I answer
     
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  2. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    But note that Christ said the words that you should turn to an unborn person from above. In the Scriptures, in general, all calls for repentance and conversion refer precisely to the unborn.

    Remember the centurion Cornelius.

    He led a pious life as a non-reborn Christian, as he had clearly chosen to serve the Most High God long before.

    He even prayed and God heard him long before the Holy Spirit descended on him.
    ========================
    30 Cornelius said, " On the fourth day I fasted until this hour, and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in a light robe,
    31 And he said, Cornelius! your prayer is heard, and your alms are remembered before God.
    32 So go to Joppa and call for Simon, who is called Peter; he is staying in the house of Simon the tanner by the sea; he will come and tell you.
    33 Immediately I sent to you, and you did well to come. Now we are all present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
    34 Peter opened his mouth and said, " Truly, I know that God has no regard for persons.",
    35 But in every nation, he who fears him and does what is right is pleasing to Him.
    36 He sent the word to the children of Israel, proclaiming peace through Jesus Christ, who is the Lord of all.
    37 You know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning in Galilee, after the baptism preached by John:
    38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and he went about doing good and healing all who were possessed by the devil, because God was with Him.
    39 And we are witnesses of all that he did in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, and that at last he was killed by hanging on a tree.
    40 This man God raised up on the third day, and gave him to appear.
    41 Not to all the people, but to the witnesses who were chosen from God, to us, who ate and drank with him, after his resurrection from the dead.
    42 And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to bear witness that He is the appointed Judge of the living and the dead from God.
    43 All the prophets bear witness of him, that whosoever believeth in him shall receive the remission of sins in his name.
    44 While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit came upon all who were listening to the word.
    (Acts II.10:30-44)
     
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    "if the Son sets you free"

    That's the answer. God must choose to set you free. It's in the scripture you quote, yet you still demand that humans must set themselves free by their own willful attempt.

    You teach salvation by the law, not by grace.
     
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  4. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    I did not say man has no will evidently you're not reading the post so this no sense to answer you if you're not going to read the posts why should I answer[/QUOTE]
    Sorry, but I read all the messages and respond to them.
    Although if you have already become irritated, then you can stop discussing this issue.

    God's blessings to you, we will still remain in our opinion, since I clearly see that a person, although imperfect and very sick, still has his own will.
    ====================================
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The creed is a good summery of Calvinism, but we hold the only inspired source to be the Bible!
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are all enslaved to sin as our master until born again!
     
  7. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    So when did Cornelius become saved?
    He was saved before the gift of the Holy Spirit fell on them. Remember the early church had many gifts of the Spirit as supernatural signs.
    Getting saved is a process, which begins with becoming born again first by GOD's Spirit, and ends with your believing from the heart God raised Christ from the dead, and confessing Jesus is Lord. Cornelius is a good example of how people are born again by GOD before they confess Christ and are 'saved' as in 'sealed' in the Holy Spirit.
    In these Gentiles situation, they were born of God, then they were enabled to believe in Christ, and there was some time between these 2 things

    Ephesians 1 demonstrates this.

    13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

    Acts 11
    13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’

    17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

    18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

    Now notice v8, at this point God had made Cornelius born of God. But his salvation was not yet completed.

    8 But I said, ‘Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’ 10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven.
     
  8. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    I agree with you.The fact is that the highest authority in the Teaching is not any interpretation of the Bible in the form of creeds, symbols of faith or something else, but that the Bible itself.
     
  9. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    However, any slave, when offered to choose freedom instead of slavery, is able to choose freedom of his own free will.
     
  10. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    Well, do you admit that Cornelius led a pious life long before Peter and Christianity in general appeared in his life?
    Yes, and we are all saved before we come to the Church, since the Sacrament of our Salvation took place before the appearance of the Church on the Day of the descent of the Holy Spirit.
    But the fact of the matter is that all this does not negate the simple fact that people have at least some personal will to believe God on their own, at least somehow, even though we naturally need His help.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    24 Immediately the boy's father cried out with tears, " I believe, Lord." help my unbelief.
    (Mar. 9: 24)
     
  11. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Definitely need lots of help in believing unto salvation.
    People can be wishy washy, everyone believes something.
    But no one can know Christ unless Christ wills that they know Him.
    God's people will be willing when He shows His power working in them.

    psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

    The Father reveals the Truth about who Christ is to BABES. (such as newborn babes born of God) You must be born of God to know Christ.
    Luke 10
    21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

    22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
     
  12. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    Well, you yourself admit that God gives us faith and helps us to cultivate it, but to accept it or reject it is our own business.
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Where does the Bible tell humans they get to accept or reject faith? Please provide specific scripture that tells us this very claim that you make.

    There is no verse.

    Now, you can find verses where Jesus tells his disciples they have little faith, but you cannot find a verse saying humans can accept or reject faith.

    You never find a verse where Jesus goes up to a pagan and says "I have a jar of faith to give you. Will you accept it or will you reject it?"

    Strannik, your theology is not built on sound scripture.
     
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  14. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    It is about Christ's command to believe in Him and in Him.
    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me; but if not, believe me in the very works.
    12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do, he also will do, and more than these he will do; for I go to my Father.
    (John.14:11,12)
    ================================

    And this means that Christ was not sent to the Gentiles, but to the Jews. but according to the faith of the Gentile woman, who was outside of the Church, and outside of Israel, Christ still marked her faith.

    24 But he answered and said: I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    25 And she came and bowed down to him, and said, Lord! help me.
    26 But he answered and said, " It is not good to take bread from the children and throw it to the dogs."
    27 She said, " Yes, Lord." but the dogs also eat the crumbs that fall from the table of their masters.
    28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, " O woman! great is your faith; let it be done to you according to your desire. And her daughter was healed in that hour.
    (Matthew 15: 24-28)
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    So, based upon this we can conclude that the Bible never says humans get to accept or reject faith. You have made my point.
     
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  16. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    In the sense of not accepting or rejecting faith?
    Christ personally testified to a woman's faith even before the Church was established.
    Here we see an example of how Christ, on the contrary, called her to think about Who and for what she believes, because for the Jews he was just a "pagan dog", but she, despite all obstacles, still decided to trust Christ and believed Him.
    ==================================

    To listen to you, on the contrary, you simply deprive a lot of people of faith. You do everything so that they become discouraged and eventually fall away from the living faith in Christ the Redeemer.
     
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Active Member

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    So its fair to say that you believe that the Death of Christ in and of itself doesnt save anyone, correct ?
     
  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Active Member

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    You dont believe God predestinated some to hell for their sins, so that He will demonstrate His Justice for sin, in contrast with having predestinated some to eternal Glory so that He will demonstrate His Mercy ? I do, see Rom 9:20-23
     
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    2 Corinthians 4:1-6

    Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
     
  20. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    The point is that I believe that Christ died and rose again for the WHOLE world, and not just for a bunch of pre-elected people whom God supposedly made saved in the first place.
    ---------------------------------

    15 But Christ died for all, so that those who live no longer live for themselves, but for him who died for them and rose again.
    (2 Corinthians 5: 15)
     
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