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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by annsni, Nov 30, 2015.

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  1. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    I would be glad to brother after you address the points and questions I made in my posts in regards to the soup kitchen. It seems I am the one being asked all the questions on this thread, receiving no answers to my questions, and the process repeats itself, funny isn't it?
     
    #21 BrotherJoseph, Dec 4, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
  2. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    So how long do you have to know a person to conclude they are of Christ before you give them food and shelter? I missed the part in the good samaritan account where the samaritan first asked the wounded man if He was in Christ before he would help him.

    Do you seriously not see the error in your understanding of "thy neighbor"? Even after Jesus explained this to the Jews who were trying to justify themselves for not helping those who were NOT of their brethren?

    I'm afraid you are placing yourself in the shoes of those who did not want ALL men to be "thy neighbor".

    "But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbor". (Luke 10:29)
     
  3. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Brother Steaver,

    The original verse that was used to justify the soup kitchens was talking about feeding brothers, not neighbors. All brothers in Christ are neighbors, but one cannot say all neighbors (all people) are brothers in Christ. Here it is again, 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:27-40).

    We are called to love all men, but especially attend to our brethren in Christ.

    Jesus identified those who are our "brothers",47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Matthew 12:47-50)

    I am sorry it appears you fail to see the difference or distinguishment between a neighbor and a brother in Christ.
     
  4. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    The very passage you present shows that those brethren had no idea they had fed and gave drink to brethren. You are trying to justify not helping those who you do not consider brethren. It is the same thing the Jews tried with Jesus and He rebuked them. "Who is my neighbor" is what you are protesting.
     
  5. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Seriously brother? You want to create a distinction between a brother in Christ and a neighbor? Jesus rebuked the Jews for this very same thing.
     
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Let's put this into real life scenario. Brother Joseph, a stranger knocks on your church door or your house door and asked if you could spare something to eat. What is your answer?
     
  7. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Brother S
    Brother Steaver,

    I am tied up through Sunday, but Lord willing will get to answer your posts on Monday. Enjoy your weekend.
     
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Brother Joe you know that you and I were cut from the same cloth so to speak... That being said I know and believe the 5 point of Calvinism but what are the 5 points of grace?... That is a new one on me, never heard that before... Please explain more perfectly... Brother Glen
     
  9. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Hi Brother Glen!

    They are the same thing. I just do not like calling myself a "Calvinist" or use the terms "5 points of Calvinism" as I think both the name and phrase somehow implies we are followers of teachings that originated from John Calvin not the Bible and that they 5 points originated with Calvin, not scripture..
     
  10. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Hi Sister Ann,

    In support of church’s having missionary societies you have supplied Mark 16:15 that reads, “15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature”. What who was he speaking to? The apostles. The great commission was given specifically to the apostles and was fulfilled by them as a few verses later the same chapter tells us, “"20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen" (Mark 16:20). The gospel had been preached in all the world to every creature very early, Colossians 1:23 " If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister" (Colossians 1:23). Jesus prophesied it would be preached in all the world before 70AD and the destruction of Jerusalem, "14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" We do not have the power to properly fulfill the Commission even if we wanted to as we do not have the accompanying signs and wonders Jesus declared those preaching the commission would have when he gave them the commission in Mark 16, only the apostles had that, "17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;8 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." (Mark 16:17-19)

    There is not a mention in any epistle to any church that saving the lost is even a minor part of their church goals or responsibilities. Why this total silence on a subject that most contemporary Christians think is the most important mandate for the church? Why in the three Pastoral Epistles is there nothing even suggested of fulfilling the Great Commission by New Testament bishops and deacons?


    As for the other scripture you cited to support missionary societies, Acts 13:3-4 reads as follows, “3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.” Now again, notice what the preceding verse says, “2 the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.” (Acts 16:2). Again this command was given specially to Saul and his helper Barnabas for “a work unto” they were “called” to do by divine revelation from the Holy Ghost Himself to fulfill.

    God bless,

    Brother Joe
     
  11. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Sister Ann,

    As you have objected by providing Psalm 150, so It is commonly objected that Psalm 150 offers instruction to praise the Lord with various kinds of musical instruments. However, these instructions are not referring to New Testament worship. Procedure used in Old Testament worship obviously cannot be used to amend the New Testament pattern; otherwise, animal sacrifices, priests, etc. could be legitimately introduced to the church. It should be observed that Psalm 150 also commands to praise the Lord with dance (Ps 150:4), yet those who use the Psalm to defend musical instruments would generally condemn dancing in the church.

    What is the authority for any activities in worship? Our authority is found in three verses or passages of scripture as follows:

    1. John 4:24 “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” 2. Mark 7:7 “Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
    3. 2 Timothy 3:16-17“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

    John 4:24 gives us the must of worship. Worship must be based on the truth. Anything that is not truth cannot be considered true worship. Also, Mark 7:7 tells us that there issuch a thing as vain or empty worship. That is, attempts at worship can be unacceptable to God. When anyone teaches for doctrines the commandments of men, then their worship and the worship of those who believe them will be considered vain or empty and not acceptable with God. Next, 2 Tim. 3:16-17 tell us that the scriptures provide everything that is needed for good works. True worship is a good work before God. Thus, everything that is needed for worship is provided in the scriptures. We need not go outside the scriptures to determine what we are to do inworship. Furthermore, since the scriptures thoroughly furnish us everything, if something is not in the scriptures, then it cannot be a good work. The scriptures are our authority for all activities of worship.

    If the scriptures are silent, does that implicitly give authority to add anything that is not explicitly prohibited in worship the scriptures? As previously quoted 2: Timothy 3:16-16 states the scriptures are a thorough furnisher unto all good works. Thus, if it isn’t in the scriptures it cannot be considered a good work. I will give you two examples that fully explain God’s attitude toward adding anything to what God has given in the way of worship:

    1. Lev. 10:1 “And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.” Obviously, God was not pleased with Nadab and Abihu, the two oldest sons of Aaron. However, we do not find anywhere in the scriptures where God ever commanded not to offer strange fire before the Lord. What we do find is that God commanded to use fire from off the altar. If silence gave implicit authority to add to what God had given, then it would have been okay for Nadab and Abihu to offer strange fire in their censers. The conclusion we draw from this is that we are to do what God commands, but we are not to add to what he commands.

    2. 2 Samuel 6:3 “And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart. 4 And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark. 5 And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals. 6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. 7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.” God never commanded not to carry the ark on a new cart, nor did he command not to steady the ark if it appeared to be shaky to fall off the cart. The problem is that God did command that the Levites were to be responsible for carrying the ark and they were to carry it by the staves through the rings on the side of the ark. Man’s hands were not to touch the ark. Even though Uzzah had good intentions, yet he greatly displeased the Lord when he put forth his hand to steady the ark.

    There is no biblical precedent for the usage of musical instruments in New Testament worship. The scriptures give repeated instructions to sing in the church, but never to play (Rom 15:9, I Cor 14:15, Eph 5:19, Col 3:16, Heb 2:12, Ja 5:13).
     
  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Now I understand but when someone ask me who I am and what I believe I would say I'm of the PB Brethren and if they wanted to know what I believed I would show them my Articles Of Faith and practice (in reference to post #3) or as you call them our 5 points of Grace... Same thing!... Brother Glen
     
  13. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Hi Brother Steaver,

    I will attempt to catch up with my un-responded posts to you starting with this post.

    God has promised to preserve His word in Psalm 12:7, "7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever". This promise couldn't be true if the King James Version which is the best selling book in the world in all of history was an unreliable, inaccurate English translation. This would mean His word was not preserved when it was published to the vast majority of people who ever lived. Also, I would think it is safe to conclude many of the Greek gentile converts in the book of Acts could not read Hebrew which is the language of the original manuscripts of the Old Testament , yet I imagine they had versions of the Old Testament translated in their own language, therefore your argument has no basis that a church disqualifies itself in "being consistent" to following the New Testament worship/service practices if they do not read the Bible in the language of the original manuscripts.


    We sing hymns as also did the churches in New Testament . "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" (Ephesians 5:19) and "teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Colossians 3:16). The New Testament authorizes all hymns based upon truth of scripture as being valid worship. "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)
     
  14. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    What are the Church's Goals?
     
  15. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Brother Steaver,

    The passage does not say those who fed Jesus's brethren did not know they were their brethren in Christ, it states they did not know that by feeding the brethren they were in fact feeding Jesus himself. "37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee?" (Matthew 25:37)

    I never posted in this thread, nor do I believe we shouldn't help homeless people (both saved or unsaved), I said and maintain it is not the purpose of the church to have soup kitchens to feed the homeless. This is what I said, "Also, nothing in the verse says it is the function of the church to be operating soup kitchens. If this is what the verse taught, why didn’t the churches do so in the book of Acts, or did the churches just evolve over time and become better when they finally started establishing soup kitchens, thus finally obeying Mathew 25:35 per your interpretation?" I never received a response from any poster in regards to this question, nor do I expect too. Further, I never said we shouldn't feed homeless unsaved folks, I said we should help needy people in the church, you took the liberty to imply and extrapolate that by saying this I was also saying we shouldn't help unsaved homeless people.

    I will ask you the question I asked Sister Ann and never received and answer to,does operating a soup kitchen open to the public to all who desire to come in a busy side of town meet this verse's criteria, "3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly." (Matthew 6:3-4). It seems to me a public soup kitchen located say in the run down side of the city of Chicago by a church would more appropriately fit the following verse, "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." (Mathew 6:1) and perhaps also this verse, "But all their works they do for to be seen of men" (Mathew 23:5)

    God bless,

    Brother Joe
     
  16. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Hi Brother Jon,

    I will not list them all, but the main goal of the church is to feed Jesus's sheep via preaching His word to the children of God. Jesus instructed this to Peter (who later founded the first church in the book of Acts by those responding to His preaching at Pentecost) three times after His resurrection this if Peter loved Him, "
    15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

    16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

    17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep." (John 21:15-17)

    The church acts as the "pillar and ground of truth" "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)
     
  17. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said every brother is one is, " whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother" (Mark 3:35), does this apply to every one of your neighbors? If so, you live in a much better area than I do!! Do you consider every human being who is your neighbor also your brother in Christ? 1 John 3:10 is clear, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God". Were the Pharisees who Jesus said, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do" also your brothers?
     
  18. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Yes I would feed him! My disagreement on this thread was with those who believe having a church soup kitchen has a Biblical precedent. Also, we are to have a special love toward our brothers in Christ who are members of His body. We have communion and a fellowship with such that cannot be shared with the unregenerate. Jesus is clear however, we are too love all men, including are enemies and we will if we are truly one of His.
     
  19. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    So the Goal of the Church is to feed the Church. I was thinking more along the lines of...

    Goal of the Church...

    To Glorify God and offer spiritual sacrifices

    To Grow in the Grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ...to endeavor to Know our Lord.

    To support one another Spiritually, physically, emotionally, etc.

    To be Equipped for the Work of the Ministry

    To DO Ministry...which is to (outside the Walls of church) Share the Gospel with the Lost and to Encourage other Christians in Christ.

    At the expense of sounding overly critical, i dare say that it is the Overseer's goal is to FEED the Sheep.
     
    #39 JonShaff, Dec 7, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2015
  20. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    One of the goals of the church is to feed the sheep that are members of the body of the Church. Also, regarding church goals I explicitly said "I will not list them all..." as the first thing I replied to you, but evidently you ignored or are just willfully ignorant of my reading my reply. In other words, my reply was not meant to be an exhaustive list. Further I provided scripture to support all my assertions which you couldn't or wouldn't rebuttal, then you offer your post above that contains only your opinion with no scriptural support? I will not even bother wasting my time in rebutting such an unsupported post. Also, this is the second time in this thread you quoted my post, but both times you simply ask more questions and don't rebuttal any of my points you have quoted as can be seen by anyone reading your post # 19 and 34 on this thread. This is a debate forum, if you don't know care to debate my points, I am not engaging in such folly as responding further to your posts, "4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit" (Proverbs 26:4-5). Finally, I do not disagree with all of the goals of the church you have listed such as to glorify God, but I am afraid for some of your listed goals such as to, "To Grow in the Grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ...to endeavor to Know our Lord" you have mistaken the church's goals for the work of the that the Holy Spirit accomplishes sovereignly in a believer' life by having them, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13). One cannot of their own will "grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ" or "endeavor to Know our Lord" unless God wills to do it in that person. We are said to be branches in the vine which is Christ, does the branch support the vine or the vine the branches?
     
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