In more than one of my previous posts, I have invoked many of these truths expressed in this sermon by Charles Spurgeon.
Free Will—A Slave by C. H. Spurgeon
A Sermon
(No. 52)
Delivered on Sabbath Morning, December 2, 1855, by the
REV. C.H. SPURGEON
At New Park Street Chapel, Southwark.
"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."- Jhn 5:40
This is one of the great guns of the Arminians, mounted upon the top of their walls, and often discharged with terrible noise against the poor Christians called Calvinists. I intend to spike the gun this morning, or, rather, to turn it on the enemy, for it was never theirs; it was never cast at their foundry at all, but was intended to teach the very opposite doctrine to that which they assert. Usually, when the text is taken, the divisions are: First, that man has a will. Secondly, that he is entirely free. Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved. Now, we shall have no such divisions; but we will endeavour to take a more calm look at the text; and not, because there happen to be the words "will," or "will not" in it, run away with the conclusion that it teaches the doctrine of free-will. It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing. Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free-will; and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, "If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright." It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free-will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that he gives both; that he is "Alpha and Omega" in the salvation of men.
Well Said - Arminians listen-up!
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Wesley Briggman, May 19, 2020.
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Wesley Briggman Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
I realize you may not know what the word willing means so here is it's definition.
Willing
WILLING, ppr.
1. Determining; resolving; desiring.
2. Disposing of by will.
WILLING, a.
1. Free to do or grant; having the mind inclined; disposed; not averse. Let every man give, who is able and willing.
2. Pleased; desirous.
Felix, willing to show the Jews a pleasure. Acts 24.
3. Ready; prompt.
He stoopd with weary wings and willing feet.
4. Chosen; received of choice or without reluctance; as, to be held in willing chains.
5. Spontaneous.
No spouts of blood run wiling from a tree.
6. Consenting.
MB -
The affect that our will has on the purpose and grace of God with regard to salvation, has been put into its proper place.
Romans 3:10-18 is still the truth, even though many ( especially nowadays ) seem to doubt what is written.
1 Corinthians 1:18 is still the truth, even though many do not see the significance of what is written.
Men hating Jesus Christ by default, because of our very natures, has been proven by many passages ( John 15:18, Proverbs 29:27, Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:9, John 7:7, 1 John 3:1, 1 John 3:13 ).
Man being sinners at birth has also been proven by the word of God ( Psalms 58:3 ).
Not what John Calvin taught.
There is no bragging that I am correct, and all others are incorrect...
or that John Calvin was correct, and John Wesley was not.
To me, anything Calvin may have taught, as well as anything that William Tyndale ( who wrote about much of what is called "sovereign grace" some 8 years before Calvin ever reportedly believed on Christ ) wrote and taught, takes a back seat to the Scriptures and always will.:Thumbsup -
Incidentally, I see this verse being used to support the position that, when it comes to reconciling ourselves to God, man's will is not the absolutely rebellious and hard-hearted shambles that the Lord Himself says that it is ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Ephesians 4:17-19 and many of the Psalms )...
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Here is the verse you've listed:
" For if there be first a willing mind, [it is] accepted according to that a man hath, [and] not according to that he hath not." ( 2 Corinthians 8:12 ).
On the surface I have to admit that, without any of the context around the verse established, it does indeed appear that man must have a willing mind, and that that willing mind is accepted with God. But let's see what happens when the context of the passage is developed, by bringing in more of the text surrounding the one thing that God has to say here:
In 2 Corinthians 8:1-9, Paul is speaking to the Corinthians about the grace that has come to the churches of Macedonia;
How that in a great trial of afflictions the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty, abounded ( grew more and more ) unto the riches of their liberality...
In other words, despite their suffering for Christ, they were giving to the necessities of their fellow believers around them.
Paul is therefore commending them for their willingness to act in abundance towards their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
Now let's widen the text around it for a better look at what you've posted:
" And herein I give [my] advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
11 Now therefore perform the doing [of it]; that as [there was] a readiness to will, so [there may be] a performance also out of that which ye have.
12 For if there be first a willing mind, [it is] accepted according to that a man hath, [and] not according to that he hath not.
13 For [I mean] not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14 but by an equality, [that] now at this time your abundance [may be a supply] for their want, that their abundance also may be [a supply] for your want: that there may be equality:
15 as it is written, He that [had gathered] much had nothing over; and he that [had gathered] little had no lack." ( 2 Corinthians 8:10-15 ).
I've underlined and highlighted sections that I think are important and should be emphasized.
So, here I see that the subject is first, believers, and second, their willingness to act in abundance to meet the needs of their brothers and sisters in Christ of other churches in addition to themselves.
Why?
So that the ones who had much, should meet the needs of those who had little, that they all might have enough.
In their grace, the churches of Macedonia were giving of themselves, willingly, so that their brothers and sisters both among them and in other churches might have enough.
Do you not see this when you read the chapter beginning with verse 1?
I'm not sure why, as to me, it really is developed right on the page, and needs no interpretation.
If there be first a willing mind among believers towards giving from the heart, it is accepted according to what that man or woman has, and not according to what they do not have.
To me, this leads into what 2 Corinthians 9 is developing...
" Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. " ( 2 Corinthians 9:7 )
Note:
The people being spoken of in this passage were already believers in Christ.
As in other threads regarding this subject, their will had nothing to do with them being born again, as Psalms 65:4, John 1:13, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:14-18 and James 1:18 so clearly teach.
As believers, God has made us accepted in the beloved ( Ephesians 1:6 )...
We don't make ourselves accepted "in Christ" by a work of our own flesh or our own will.
God is the one who does all the work in the granting of eternal life;
We don't co-operate with His grace in gaining His favor. -
But the believers being spoken of in 2 Corinthians 8:1-15 were those who were described as willing, by consent, to distribute their wealth among those who were poor in this world's goods.
They abounded in their liberality willingly, towards them who had little... that the body of Christ might have enough.
As I see it, that is the essence of what many today call a "love offering".
Based on what is declared in Romans 8, the carnal mind that is at natural enmity with God was now ( in the lives of these believers, who had been born from above ) changed to not be at enmity ( at odds ) with God.
Therefore, their will was to do the work of God and to love the people of God, instead of being against it...
To show love to their fellow man ( especially their brothers and sisters in Christ ) instead of hating them.
MB, I encourage you to look at your usage of verses, and see that their context warrants it.
If we take something out of context, it can and often does give us an inaccurate view of what the text, as a whole, is stating.
I can tell you that for many years, I too, did this;
But over the years since the Lord called me by His grace, my constant study of His precious word ( and my willingness to heed both 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15 ) has gradually enabled me to look at everything contextually, and plug the verses back in to where they rightfully belong.
I wish you well, sir, as always, and may He bless you richly in your studies.:) -
Which always made me wonder, "Why was this forum named Calvinist vs. Arminian - especially since no one wants to claim to be either?"
Does he believe in choices? God said he gave humans choices in the Bible. Maybe Charles thought that God was lying?
Throughout the Bible, God and Jesus present choices. Charles seems to indicate that God is deceitful and that these choices God and Jesus present are merely mirages and not choices at all.
Earlier on this forum I made the mistake in believing that people used the common definition for some of these words.
I'm really sad you presented this because it makes Charles seem demonic in an insidious way. -
I realize that your post was directed at Wesley, but I'd like to make a few replies if I may:
"Calvinists" tend to view anything that deals with God's choice of that people being dependent upon something a man does, as "Arminianism" and they believe that it erroneously simplifies the God of the Bible...who is gracious towards all men in this life, but is truly loving only towards His own children eternally.
I could also characterize the sides as "God's Will" versus "Man's Will",
Or " Faith in God's works alone" versus "Faith in Man's works plus God's works".
Those that put God at the very top and see Scripture teaching that every facet of salvation is sponsored by God ( leaving that person nothing to stand on except the Lord's efforts towards them ), are known as "Calvinists".
Those that put God near the top and see Scripture teaching that almost every facet of salvation is sponsored by God ( leaving that person something other than God's efforts to stand on ), are known as "Arminians".
I think you already know these things, Marty...
But for those who are new to this subject, that is to whom I am speaking when I address your post. -
I'm not absolutely sure sure what Charles Spurgeon used, as he's not here to ask...but to me he appears to be using the Bible's definitions as well.
I didn't.
Here's what Luther said:
"If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright."
Here it is paraphrased in plain English:
" If any man attributes anything of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knows nothing of grace and has not learned Jesus Christ correctly".
No, he did not.
Do you know anywhere that Spurgeon's Gospel preaching was not in accord with John 6, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, 2 Thessalonians 2 and Psalms 65:4 for example?
I'm not aware of it.
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The words on the pages of the Bible declare that there are a group of people that know and understand God's word when they hear it, and there are a group that, no matter how much they try, they will never come to that understanding:
" But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" ( 2 Peter 2:12 ).
False teachers, as natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed, speak badly of things they do not understand about the Bible.
" For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith " ( 2 Timothy 3:6-8 )
Paul tells Timothy that they are of the sort that leads away foolish people who are laden with sins and led away with their lusts.
They are ever-learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
They resist the truth, as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses when he stood before Pharoah.
Finally, there is a group of people who think that the preaching of the cross is foolishness, and there is a group of people who believe it to be the power of God:
" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
Them that perish think the Gospel is foolishness, while them that are saved do not.
So, to one the truths of God's word are "gnosticism", and to others is it the grace, power, mercy and wisdom of God ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ).
Have you believed the preaching of the cross, Marty?
Then know that you are one of the ones who is a "gnostic" to those who do not believe it.:)
There are millions that look at Christians and say, " I don't know how you can believe that fairy-tale stuff"...
To them, we are "gnostics" because they don't understand it.:( -
The ones He gave the Holy Spirit to, in order to understand and know the truth:
Please see John 16:13, 1 Corinthians 2:1-16, 1 John 2:20-27.
I don't see Charles Spurgeon as being demonic in any way.
Rather, I see that over his lifetime he spoke much truth and I find little in his sermons or writings that I have disagreed with him over the years.
Would you be a bit more specific on what it is that makes Charles Spurgeon "demonic"...
Was it the doctrines that he preached, or the Scriptures that he used?
Was it the fact that he presented the God of the Bible as sovereign and the Lord of all... and men as the rebellious and corrupt sinners that God's word teaches us that we are...or was it something else?
Please show the reader where Charles Spurgeon was a false teacher and an anti-christ using God's word and establishing that he denied that Christ was come in the flesh ( 1 John 4:1-6 ). -
Wesley Briggman Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Take care and stay safe brother. -
Here's a better background. It's even done by a Calvinist. I would hope that people would take the time to learn rather than swallow your propaganda.
You make words mean whatever you want them to mean in order to support your point.
Neither occur in the Bible.
Charles Spurgeon said, "Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free-will"
What does the Bible say about this? He denies the God and Savior of the disciples of Jesus to embrace the gods of philosophy and religion, of the Stoics and Pharisees. He doesn't embrace the Bible - he embraces philosophy and religion.
John 3:16 NLT
For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
What?! It doesn't say everyone God zaps with grace?!
Romans 10:9 NLT
If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Hey! It doesn't say you will only be saved if God zaps you with grace!
Acts 17:11-12 NLT
And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth. [12] As a result, many Jews believed, as did many of the prominent Greek women and men.
What?! Searching scriptures! Where is the Calvinistic Cosmic Lottery Farce?
James 2:19-20 NLT
You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. [20] How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?
John 14:21 NLT
Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”
I don't know what is meant by "free-will" but a Christian obviously has to do and believe in order to be saved. The Bible is very clear about that.
John 6:26 NLT
Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, you want to be with me because I fed you, not because you understood the miraculous signs.
Charles' Philosophical lecture is not in accord with
Acts 13:48 NLT
When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.
Charles' Philosophical lecture is not in accord with
Romans 8:6 NLT
So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace.
You asked for it . . .
Charles' Philosophical lecture is no in accord with
Ephesians 1:1 NLT
This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus. I am writing to God’s holy people in Ephesus, who are faithful followers of Christ Jesus.
Charles' Philosophical lecture is no in accord with
2 Thessalonians 2:1 NLT
Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.
Charles' Philosophical lecture is no in accord with
Psalm 65:1 NLT
What mighty praise, O God, belongs to you in Zion. We will fulfill our vows to you,
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These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed. [13] Their destruction is their reward for the harm they have done. They love to indulge in evil pleasures in broad daylight. They are a disgrace and a stain among you. They delight in deception even as they eat with you in your fellowship meals. [14] They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God’s curse. [15] They have wandered off the right road and followed the footsteps of Balaam son of Beor, who loved to earn money by doing wrong. [16] But Balaam was stopped from his mad course when his donkey rebuked him with a human voice.
"there are a group of people that know and understand God's word when they hear it, and there are a group that, no matter how much they try, they will never come to that understanding" is not what is stated in this passage.
Interesting enough, Balaam is commonly quoted by Calvinists.
2 Timothy 3:1-5 NLT
You should know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. [2] For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. [3] They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and hate what is good. [4] They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. [5] They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!
Once again, "there are a group of people that know and understand God's word when they hear it, and there are a group that, no matter how much they try, they will never come to that understanding" is not what is stated in this passage.
So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish.
This directly describes Charles. A brilliant debater who embraces philosophy and religion.
Luke 18:42 NLT
And Jesus said, “All right, receive your sight! Your faith has healed you.”
Do you believe this?
Luke 19:9 NLT
Jesus responded, “Salvation has come to this home today, for this man has shown himself to be a true son of Abraham."
Do you believe in This?
Mark 5:34 NLT
And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace. Your suffering is over.”
Do you believe this?
Romans 1:16 NLT
[16] For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile.
Do you believe this?
2 Corinthians 4:4 NLT
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
Do you believe this?
Matthew 16:23 NLT
Jesus turned to Peter and said, “Get away from me, Satan! You are a dangerous trap to me. You are seeing things merely from a human point of view, not from God’s.”
Do you believe this?
John 5:39 NLT
“You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!
Do you believe in this?
Jonah 3:10 NLT
When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he changed his mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened.
Do you believe in this?
Deuteronomy 30:15 NLT
“Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster.
Well? Do you? Without reservation or redefinition? Without adding a cosmic lottery?
I put my faith and trust in a divine Jesus who came in fully human form. Not partially human as the Augustinians believe. I know the Bible states that he was tempted and not fake-tempted like the Calvinists believe. I know he suffered a death he did not deserve to provide me a salvation I do not deserve.
John 16:13 NLT
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.
"He will not speak on his own" refers to a number of different possibilities but the most likely referring to us is the New Testament we have inherited.
1 Corinthians 2:4 NLT
And my message and my preaching were very plain. Rather than using clever and persuasive speeches, I relied only on the power of the Holy Spirit.
Clever and persuasive speeches like Charles did?
1 John 2:24 NLT
[24] So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will remain in fellowship with the Son and with the Father.
Don't be led into some philosophical belief about a cosmic lottery.
Charles states in this sermon that salvation is a knowledge test on whether one believes in Calvinism - his philosophical and religious beliefs. Charles denies the cross. Charles denies the real Jesus.
There is no cosmic lottery in this. Wesley has decided not listen to the Bible while he throws hand grenades over his shoulder at the opposition. He made the choice - no cosmic lottery involved.
If I remember, Wesley has me on ignore because I refused to agree to the slaughter of the Jews by the Muslims. -
MB -
But He does save men against their stubborn and rebellious wills, when He opens the heart so that people may "attend" to the preacher's words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
John 6:44.
Ephesians 2:1-10.
Romans 8:29-30.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Acts of the Apostles 2:47.
2 Peter 3:9.
2 Timothy 1:9.
Ephesians 1:3-7.
John 15:16.
Philippians 1:6.
Philippians 1:29.
Philippians 2:13.
2 Corinthians 4:6.
John 6:64-65.
John 17:2.
Romans 9:16.
John 10:28-29.
1 Peter 1:3-5.
1 John 5:1.
1 Thessalonians 1:4.
Romans 9:19.
John 1:13.
James 1:18.
Any Scripture that tells us that God did something even when the sinner was dead in trespasses and sins, shows His grace towards them to be "irresistible", because God has overcome the wicked, God-hating nature that is in all of us, and granted us repentance unto life.
That election ( choice ) is clearly stated to be according to His own purpose and grace, not ours as men.
Man being stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart, haters of God, not desiring to come to Christ lest their deeds should be reproved ( "total depravity" ) is named in Scripture.
Christ dying for His people is named in Scripture.
His grace coming upon a person when they are still dead in their trespasses and sins, is named in Scripture.
Christ's sheep persevering in their faith and trust in God and His power, is named in Scripture. -
I can't help it if you are hostile to the truth.
You would simply dismiss it out of hand, without getting angry about it.;)
There is no salvation without belief of the Gospel...God does not do the believing for us.
There is no salvation without that believer doing things by faith ( faith without works is dead ).
God does not force a person to do those things against their will.
Then along comes God's perspective and it seems you simply toss that out the window.
That perspective is how and why someone is saved, believes, and has faith...
The reasons behind why we do those things.
He said that "even philosophy and religion have discarded the notion of "free will", so why shouldn't we as believers do the same?".
Read some of his other sermons, and he as much states what the Bible says and calls man's philosophy "vain", in agreement with the Bible.
To me, he speaks many things that "become" ( are suited to ) sound doctrine. -
Do you?
It appears so...
Now, I encourage you to rely on the Lord to help you put it all together properly, because to me, you're not doing that yet.
Which leads me to a question:
How long have you been a believer, if I may ask?
Hint:
It has to do with earthly prosperity and earthly disaster to a people who agreed, of their own will, to obey the Law of Moses.
Furthermore, examine what you've been taught, like I did, from a fuller reading of the Scriptures over years...
Then when you have done that, I will believe that you have investigated it thoroughly.
Until then, all I see out of your hostility is you ignoring the words on the page in many places, and over-emphasizing others without identifying the context...
Exactly as I did for many years.;)
Rather than act graciously, you hop on your "I hate all things "Calvinist" horse and beat people incessantly with your disapproval of anything that even hints at God being sovereign over His creation, and holding men responsible for not seeking to glorify Him in all things...
Even though we will never come to Him of our own accord because of our love for sin.
When you begin to treat Wesley as a person, rather than as an enemy to be beaten into submission, I imagine he will take you off his ignore list, as will I.
But the reality of it is, I cannot speak for Wesley...
I can only speak for myself.
So I really do not know why he has chosen to put certain people on ignore.
But I know why I have.
Admittedly, the only reason I even look at your posts half the time, is to see if anything in your behavior has changed.
In the two years I've been here, you haven't appeared to change one bit...
You still post inflammatory remarks designed to hurt people personally, instead of politely disagreeing with them. -
See Acts of the Apostles 2:39 and Acts of the Apostles 2:47, for example.
Please allow me to post them for you to consider:
1) Acts of the Apostles 2:39: " For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call."
"This promise is to you, to your children, and to those far away —all who have been called by the Lord our God.” <------ NLT
2) Acts of the Apostles 2:47: " praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."
" all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved. <---- NLT
3) Acts of the Apostles 13:48: " And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
" When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers. <----- NLT
All that's needed is to believe the words, Marty...
Nothing more.
No propaganda, no sleight of hand...
Just God's words, as they are written.
As for the rest, so did I, in 1978.
Let us both rejoice together for His great grace and mercy that He has extended to us.:) -
That's why it is considered a slander. In giving a "neutral" definition, the other side should agree to it. Otherwise, one is trying to tell the other what they believe and one ends up arguing with straw men. People argue past each other and while they may be facing each other, the people they are arguing with are not there.
There is Compatibilism. This basically means that God zaps certain people with a new nature and they behave like people with a new nature, while others don't get zapped and therefore behave according to their depraved nature. This is more or less what Martin Luther believed.
There is true Calvinism. John Calvin believed in "no mere permission". God doesn't just permit the man to murder and rape the boy, God causes him to do that. Now you and other determinists may recoil about the example, but not John Calvin. This is what John Calvin believed.
And there are other variations of determinism and I really can't guess which one you believe in. But one aspect of determinism is basically the same for all the variations - People really don't have choices. People choose a certain way because of their nature, because God influenced them in one way or the other or God actually causes them to do it.
Tucker Carlson explains it here.
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