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Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Darrell C, Apr 21, 2018.

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  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Yes, actually you are:

    And as I said, it is absurd.


    Not according to Christ:


    John 14:17
    King James Version (KJV)

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.



    And not according to God, according to His promise:


    Ezekiel 36:27
    King James Version (KJV)

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



    This is just one of the promises of the New Covenant which no Old Testament Saint received.


    Again, no.

    They were not eternally forgiven, eternally indwelt, reconciled to God, or...born again.

    Could you do me a favor and actually read the thread.


    God bless.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    One either has the Holy Spirit or not, but those who had him under the OC, did not have full access to God directly as we do now for example!
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    They didn't "have Him."

    That is why you equate salvation under the Law with Eternal Salvation with Christ. I know you don't mean to, but, that is what you do.

    There is a difference between the Spirit of God being with someone, and the Spirit of God being in someone because that person has been reconciled to God, and is now in Eternal Union with them.

    Again, look at the following:


    John 14:15-23
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.



    Now, I want you to answer a question for me: are the disciples, while Christ is teaching them this...indwelt by the Spirit of Truth (v.17)?

    Are they indwelt by Christ (v.18)?



    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



    Has Christ manifested Himself to them?

    Have they been indwelt by the Father and Christ?

    The obvious answers to these questions are, no, no, no, and no.

    Because He is foretelling the sending of the Spirit of Truth Who cannot come unless He returns to Heaven:


    John 16:7
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.



    Not sure why you cannot see this simple truth, Yeshua1. Just answer the questions, read the Scripture presented, and you will.


    God bless.
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    There is only one body of believers though who will be in heaven with God, and both the OT saints and the NT saints are there now, right?
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Respond to the point made in that post then I will answer this question.


    God bless.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Which post#?
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Post #103:


    God bless.
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Doesn't sound like CTB to me....just sayin...
     
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  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Again, doesn't sound like CTB to me....
     
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  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    My apologies for taking so long to come back to you. I have three sermons to compose in short order. Also, I briefly lost the will to live when I saw nine replies to my last post! With respect, that is not debate, it is spamming.
    {QUOTE="Martin Marprelate"] The teaching that Jesus is the Christ is at the heart of the Gospel. It is what the Lord Jesus and the Apostles taught.
    John 4:25-26; 11:27; 20:31; Acts 2:36; 8:5; 9:20-22; 16:31; 18:5, 28.[/QUOTE]
    I stated my premise and then gave supporting texts. What more do you want?
    Well I wish you wouldn't write your quotes out in full; I know the Bible, thanks. It makes your posts long and unwieldy.
    But I don't understand your point. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.'
    'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' 'Blessed are you, Simon BarJonah, for heaven and earth has not revealed this to you but My Father in heaven
    .' End of story. Peter believes on the Lord Jesus Christ with a God-given faith and is saved, and, indeed, blessed. End of story.
    Yes. 'Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God' (1 John 5:1).
    Firstly, they did believe on Him as Saviour. 'You have the words of eternal life.' They were believing on Him for eternal life; how is that not salvation? What they didn't understand is how salvation was effected.
    Secondly, there is very little about the resurrection in the OT. Unless one accepts the typology of the sacrifice of Isaac and the life of Joseph, I can only think of Isaiah 53:10-11. The OT saints believed according to the light that they had in the Messiah that would come. Today, no one born of the Spirit would deny the resurrection because it's there in our Bibles.
    Even today, when the Bible is so readily available, new (and not-so-new) converts are dreadfully ignorant about the Gospel. Peter believed in Christ. So what does it mean that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ?
    That He is the One spoken of throughout the O.T.
    That He is the Seed of the woman who should crush the serpent's head (Genesis 3:15).
    That He is the Seed of Abraham through whom all nations should be blessed (Genesis 12:3 etc.).
    That He is the High Priest in the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4).
    That He is the Prophet like Moses that all men must hear (Deuteronomy 18:15).
    That He is the King to whom the nations are given as an inheritance (Psalm 2:6-8).
    That He is the One whose dominion shall never pass away (Daniel 7:14)
    That He is the LORD our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6)
    That He is the One who shall shepherd the LORD's flock (Ezekiel 34:23).
    Etc., etc.

    All that, and more, is contained in Peter's confession, and it was revealed to him by God the Holy Spirit via the New Birth (1 John 5:1 again!).

    So when an Israelite came with his offering to the temple, he either thought to himself, "Well, I've done my duty for God today; I'm all sorted out with him until the next time," or his eyes and his heart were opened by the Holy Spirit, and he saw himself as a lost sinner rightly under the judgement of God and cried out in his heart, 'For You do not desire sacrifice or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart-- these, O God, You will not despise' (Psalm 51:16-17). And he looked by faith at the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world, and 'went down to his house justified' (Luke 18:14). Such a man was one like Simeon, 'who was waiting for the Consolation of Israel' (Luke 2:25), and I say that such people were born again as surely as anyone who has ever lived.

    I'm afraid that that's all you're going to get from me. If I had time I would trawl through all your other posts, but I think I would only be repeating myself. On another thread I pasted something I wrote about 'The Prophet Abel.' The full version is here:
    The Prophet Abel I know you don't read anything from links (which is your loss), but some may find it helpful.














     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I stated my premise and then gave supporting texts. What more do you want?

    Well I wish you wouldn't write your quotes out in full; I know the Bible, thanks. It makes your posts long and unwieldy.
    But I don't understand your point. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.'
    'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' 'Blessed are you, Simon BarJonah, for heaven and earth has not revealed this to you but My Father in heaven
    .' End of story. Peter believes on the Lord Jesus Christ with a God-given faith and is saved, and, indeed, blessed. End of story.

    Yes. 'Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God' (1 John 5:1).

    Firstly, they did believe on Him as Saviour. 'You have the words of eternal life.' They were believing on Him for eternal life; how is that not salvation? What they didn't understand is how salvation was effected.
    Secondly, there is very little about the resurrection in the OT. Unless one accepts the typology of the sacrifice of Isaac and the life of Joseph, I can only think of Isaiah 53:10-11. The OT saints believed according to the light that they had in the Messiah that would come. Today, no one born of the Spirit would deny the resurrection because it's there in our Bibles.

    Even today, when the Bible is so readily available, new (and not-so-new) converts are dreadfully ignorant about the Gospel. Peter believed in Christ. So what does it mean that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ?
    That He is the One spoken of throughout the O.T.
    That He is the Seed of the woman who should crush the serpent's head (Genesis 3:15).
    That He is the Seed of Abraham through whom all nations should be blessed (Genesis 12:3 etc.).
    That He is the High Priest in the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4).
    That He is the Prophet like Moses that all men must hear (Deuteronomy 18:15).
    That He is the King to whom the nations are given as an inheritance (Psalm 2:6-8).
    That He is the One whose dominion shall never pass away (Daniel 7:14)
    That He is the LORD our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6)
    That He is the One who shall shepherd the LORD's flock (Ezekiel 34:23).
    Etc., etc.

    All that, and more, is contained in Peter's confession, and it was revealed to him by God the Holy Spirit via the New Birth (1 John 5:1 again!).

    So when an Israelite came with his offering to the temple, he either thought to himself, "Well, I've done my duty for God today; I'm all sorted out with him until the next time," or his eyes and his heart were opened by the Holy Spirit, and he saw himself as a lost sinner rightly under the judgement of God and cried out in his heart, 'For You do not desire sacrifice or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart-- these, O God, You will not despise' (Psalm 51:16-17). And he looked by faith at the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world, and 'went down to his house justified' (Luke 18:14). Such a man was one like Simeon, 'who was waiting for the Consolation of Israel' (Luke 2:25), and I say that such people were born again as surely as anyone who has ever lived.

    I'm afraid that that's all you're going to get from me. If I had time I would trawl through all your other posts, but I think I would only be repeating myself. On another thread I pasted something I wrote about 'The Prophet Abel.' The full version is here:
    The Prophet Abel I know you don't read anything from links (which is your loss), but some may find it helpful.

    We both would agree that God has but 1 Body of people, ther saved and redeemed in both OT/NT times, so would not those who were saved in OT have to somehow have the Spirit in some fashion in order to be linked with Christ and saved?












    [/QUOTE]
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not really any point in even addressing this, because you have ignored every point given in the last response. When you are not so busy, perhaps you could take some time to actually address the Scripture and the points which already addressed the arguments you have presented.

    You have presented nothing that shows men were regenerated in the Old Testament, and you have not addressed the points that show they could not have possibly been, because no man had received...

    1. Eternal Remission of sins (they died still offering up the Old Testament Provision, animal sacrifice);

    2. Reconciliation to God through the Atonement (and that is the only means of Atonement);

    3. Eternal Indwelling through Reconciliation.


    I give these three only and suggest to you that these points are not going to be "addressed," because they are irrefutable...and basic to Christian Doctrine.

    Again, when you can take this seriously and actually engage in debate, which means addressing the arguments presented, rather than simply preaching the same arguments that have already been addressed, let me know.

    You say you know the Bible and I do not need to include the Scripture, but, I suggest to you that until you can address the Scripture presented, that claim has to be questioned. I don't say this to offend, simply to point out you are incapable of actually engaging in this discussion.

    And I have to ask, why is it people who themselves give long responses complain about others doing so? And why even bother posting if one does not want a detailed response?


    God bless.
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God is not limited by time, so He was able to redeem his own under the OT period byt eh same basis he did and does today, by the Cross of Christ!
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    You refuse to think about anything, apparently.

    No man was redeemed prior to the Redeemer coming:


    Hebrews 9:12 & 15
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



    You need to start reading your Bible, Yeshua1, instead of posting. It wouldn't be so bad if you actually read the Scripture and points presented to you, but I can see no way imaginable that you are, because you keep repeating the same errors over and over.

    Now, read the two verses above, and answer these two simple questions:

    1. How is Eternal Redemption obtained?

    2. When was Eternal Redemption obtained?


    I will respond to no more of your posts until you answer these two questions. Take your mouse and highlight these two questions, one at a time, and when "quote/reply" pops up hit quote. Then go to the bottom of the page and hit "Insert Quotes" by the response box.

    Then answer these two questions.


    God bless.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Eternal redemption was provided for the elect and chosen of God before the foundation of the world itself, correct?
     
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not only incorrect but grossly incorrect.

    Post the questions, answer the questions. If you do as I ask, you would not being asking this question.


    God bless.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    From the viewpoint of God, all who are his own elect were saved from the foundation of the world, but to us, still needed to have Jesus die upon the Cross and be raised again.
    Some reformed theologians, whom i suspect might be right on this, have seen God regeneration the OT saints unto salvation, but that they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirt upon Pentacost.
     
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Since you have offered these points concisely, I can reply to them concisely.
    Those who put their faith in the OT sacrifices could not have been saved (Hebrews 10:1), that is for certain. But if you read my post, you will note that I spoke of those who looked beyond the sacrifices to the Lamb of God, the Lord our Righteousness.
    Indeed, Christ is the only way of salvation, but He is 'foreordained before the foundation of the world' (1 Peter 1:20) and 'slain from the foundation of the world' (Revelation 13:8).
    It is only by the Holy Spirit that anyone can trust in Christ and be reconciled with God. But that the Holy Spirit indwelt certain believers in the OT is without doubt (e.g. Numbers 27:18; Nehemiah 9:30; 1 Peter 1:11). Likewise the Spirit prompted true prayer, inspired spiritual worship and produced fruit in the lives of OT believers (c.f. Zechariah 4:6) just as He does today. We have 'the same Spirit of faith' that they had (2 Corinthians 4:13). The Spirit was given in the OT saints prospectively, as pardon of sin was given-- in view of the satisfaction which Christ would render to God.

    There is no doubt that the large majority of OT Israelites were devoid of grace (Isaiah 1:9), but that there was a remnant according to the election of grace' (Romans 11:5) among them is also true, and they were saved by Christ, by grace and through faith just as we are.
     
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    In point of fact they could be, because obedience to the will of God indicates faith and belief.

    But, what could not be accomplished by those sacrifices is Eternal Redemption.

    So when I say "saved," I refer to men being justified by grace through faith, which is distinguished from being Eternally Redeemed through the Offering of Christ.

    If you continue with Hebrews 10:1 you will see that in regards to remission of sins...no man was eternally forgiven:


    Hebrews 10:1-4
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

    3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



    The Book of Hebrews has the Writer dealing specifically with Israel, his brethren, but, we can also include the atonement and remission of sins provided by the Old Testament provision since Abel.

    Here, the point is that those sacrifices could not take away sins, they could not make perfect (complete, bring to an end) those the sacrifices were offered for (and Chapter 9 makes it clear it did not perfect/make complete those who performed the service).

    But...


    Hebrews 10:10-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



    Only the Sacrifice of Christ is attributed to making one perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins.

    Abraham did not receive that, nor did the disciples...until Christ actually died for them.

    Salvation in Old Testament Economies was not accomplished except by one reason...God's grace.

    Abraham never heard the Mystery of the Gospel revealed to him, we are told the Gospel he heard:


    Galatians 3:6-8
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.



    You can look in Genesis, Romans, and James, and their testimony all agrees as to why Abraham was credited with a righteous standing.

    And Abraham died not having received the Atonement.


    Not until you read mine.

    ;)

    And I mean those already posted. Address the points, address the Scripture. I am going to respond to this one, and I do not apologize for the length, or the Scripture.


    Continued...
     
  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Not going to happen. No time. Sorry, but I have other, more important things to do. I saw you snowed some other poor guy on another thread with umpteen posts on the same subject. It's not big, and it's not clever. Keep it brief.
     
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