If Christ states "No man hath ascended into Heaven," that's good enough for me.
Christ did not ascend into Heaven to receive truth, He descended from Heaven with truth, and according to John, to declare God to Man.
And if you deny that men went into Sheol/Hades, what exactly do you do with Luke 16?
And if you don't mind, comments such as...
...have nothing to do with the topic and are unbefitting one sitting in a position of leadership such as you are. If we do not see mature interaction on the part of the Moderation, why would we expect anything different from the membership?
While there is controversy surrounding the issue of whether "Who is in Heaven" should be included, seeing it is not found in all available manuscripts, that does not detract from the fact we can, in red letters even, know that Christ has said "John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."
There is no way we can construe that to mean anything but what it states. If no man hath ascended to Heaven according to Christ, then no man hath ascended to Heaven.
Christ said it, that settles it.
God bless.
Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Darrell C, Feb 18, 2016.
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John 3
King James Version (KJV)
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Nicodemus "marveled," and was told not to. And we ask, why would someone who is presented in a public setting as a great teacher, or someone knowledgeable about spiritual truth...be so undiscerning?
Now, I agree that the first birth can be said to refer to man's physical condition, and that this is of course general knowledge. However, the birth in view is one which cannot be witnessed, again pointing to Nicodemus' error in applying a physicality to what Christ has just stated.
Hence, as in the example of "Speaking to the Chair," we recognize the multiple meanings of words, and can reasonably conclude that this is what happened here. How Christ defines this birth further leads us, I believe, to conclude that in view is simply "Ye must be born of God." The equivalent phrase is "Ye must be born from above," or, Ye must be born of the Spirit," all of which correlate to Christ's teaching, whereas being born physically has nothing to do with it, for all men are born, and there is no Old Testament parallel that even hints to a concept of entering the mother's womb a second time and being born again.
Again, Christ expects Nicodemus to know what He is referring to, and again, what should have come to mind, in a context that involves a Teacher of Israel presumed to understand the First Principles of the Oracles of God...would have been the restoration of Israel which was expected when God did in fact send the Messiah.
The Valley of dry bones pictures that which is dead coming to life again, and any physical quality that Nicodemus would have ascribed to Christ's statement would have still had it's root in something performed by God.
God bless. -
Sheol/Hades is not some "Protestant Purgatory." Sheol/Hades is simply "the place of the departed" or "the abode of the dead." It is properly translated "grave" in many places in the bible, (Genesis 37:35; 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 7:9; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; Psalm 49:14; Isaiah 14:11, etc.) or “hell” (Deuteronomy 32:22; Psalm 9:17; Psalm 18:5; Isaiah 14:9; Amo_9:2, etc.); in 3 places by “pit” (Numbers 16:30, Numbers 16:33; Job 17:16). It means simply the unseen world, the state or abode of the dead, and is the equivalent of the Greek Hades, by which word it is translated in the Septuagint. Neither word has anything whatsoever to do with the "Protestant Purgatory."
And why is my disagreeing with your assertion that the words were spoken by Christ "unbefitting one sitting in a position of leadership?" Because I am a Baptist Board Administrator I don't have the right to express my beliefs? I am to be silenced regarding my studied and carefully considered understanding of the word of God? I don't remember agreeing to any such thing prior to accepting Administrator status, either in 2001 or more recently.
While there is controversy surrounding the issue of whether "Who is in Heaven" should be included, seeing it is not found in all available manuscripts, that does not detract from the fact we can, in red letters even, know that Christ has said "John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."Click to expand...
There is no way we can construe that to mean anything but what it states.Click to expand...If no man hath ascended to Heaven according to Christ, then no man hath ascended to Heaven.Click to expand...Christ said it, that settles it.Click to expand...
And the whole context of John 3:9-21 centers on the statement that "Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth may in Him have eternal life."
See the context? Moses "ascended" Mount Sinai. He brought down some truth. But nobody had to ascend to get this truth. Jesus brought it down from Heaven! -
Darrell C said: ↑And Nicodemus is rebuked for viewing "Ye must be born again" as a reference to the physical.Click to expand...
Christ used the physical to illustrate the spiritual, and Nicodemus missed the illustration. That is clear to everyone. And as absolutely nothing to do with the points I have been trying to get you to understand. -
TCassidy said: ↑Darrell C said:Darrell C said: ↑
If Christ states "No man hath ascended into Heaven," that's good enough for me.
Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand...
Then we would have to conclude that John also said this:
John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
TCassidy said: ↑Luke 16?
Click to expand...
Please post any statement I have ever made where I deny that people went into Sheol/Hades.Click to expand...
TCassidy said: ↑This is not about the "Protestant Purgatory" nonsense, it is as the Truth of God being given to mankind.Click to expand...
This was your response to my statement...
Darrell C said: ↑No man went into the Holiest of All before Christ. We will have to first read these two went into Heaven into these passages, then, we will conflict with the clear statements of Scripture that no man did.Click to expand...
TCassidy said: ↑Sheol/Hades is not some "Protestant Purgatory." Sheol/Hades is simply "the place of the departed" or "the abode of the dead." It is properly translated "grave" in many places in the bible, (Genesis 37:35; 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 7:9; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; Psalm 49:14; Isaiah 14:11, etc.) or “hell” (Deuteronomy 32:22; Psalm 9:17; Psalm 18:5; Isaiah 14:9; Amo_9:2, etc.); in 3 places by “pit” (Numbers 16:30, Numbers 16:33; Job 17:16). It means simply the unseen world, the state or abode of the dead, and is the equivalent of the Greek Hades, by which word it is translated in the Septuagint. Neither word has anything whatsoever to do with the "Protestant Purgatory."Click to expand...
In Luke 16, Both Lazarus and the rich man die, and we do not see Lazarus with God, nor the rich man's brother exhorted to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but, we see Lazarus with another dead Old Testament Saint, and the brothers having a provision of the Law and the Prophets.
Clearly distinctive to the Age of Law.
They did not go to Heaven.
TCassidy said: ↑Darrell C said:John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."
Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand...
John is not the One speaking. I am amazed you would even offer this argument.
TCassidy said: ↑John 3:9-21 centers on the statement that "Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth may in Him have eternal life."Click to expand...
Moses going up the mountain did nothing to alleviate the condition of the state of man, as did the serpent and the Cross.
Secondly, Christ does not correlate Moses going up the Mountain to the Cross, nor does He correlate His ascension to the Cross.
This too is a poor argument.
TCassidy said: ↑See the context? Moses "ascended" Mount Sinai.Click to expand...
...where exactly?
There is not even a reference to it.
TCassidy said: ↑He brought down some truth. But nobody had to ascend to get this truth. Jesus brought it down from Heaven!Click to expand...
Christ removed this judgment...
Colossians 2:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
...by being lifted up as the serpent lifted up brought healing.
Your correlation is not in the passage, so I would suggest you rethink your reasoning.
God bless. -
TCassidy said: ↑You can't seem to focus on what I am saying. I never said nor suggested Christ did not rebuke Nicodemus for focusing on the physical rather than the spiritual. That point is not in contention.
Christ used the physical to illustrate the spiritual, and Nicodemus missed the illustration. That is clear to everyone. And as absolutely nothing to do with the points I have been trying to get you to understand.Click to expand...
His response altogether misses the mark of what Christ states. Nothing in his response is correct or applies to what Christ is teaching, which is basically a man must be born of God to see and enter the Kingdom.
Now, let's look at the/an underlying issue, which is, does this passage teach us that being born again was something that did or could take place at the very moment of this teaching?
That is the argument offered by many, and they base this on a view that "The Lord expected Nicodemus to know what He meant, thus it must have been possible."
God bless. -
Darrell C said: ↑So John is recounting himself speaking to the people?Click to expand...
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Darrell C said: ↑Seeing that the issue in view was about men going to Heaven, this...Click to expand...
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TCassidy said: ↑John is making an editorial comment. This is called a "gloss." It is a comment added to the text as a teaching note instructing the reader regarding the context or intent of the passage.Click to expand...
Matthew 24:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
...is an editorial comment.
John 3 is not. Could you produce one Theologian that agrees with you, and states that this is John speaking within the text?
God bless. -
TCassidy said: ↑Again, you misunderstand. Shoel/Hades, as I should from the bible is the grave. Not "Protestant Purgatory."Click to expand...
God bless. -
Darrell C said: ↑This too is a poor argument.Click to expand...
Remember the primary rules of biblical hermeneutics.
The rule of USAGE: It must be remembered that the bible was written originally by, to and for Jews. The words and idioms must have been intelligible to them - just as the words of Christ when talking to them must have been. What did Nicodemus, a Jew, understand "ascended into heaven" was referring to? Moses, of course. Common knowledge to a Jew of that era.
The rule of CONTEXT: The meaning must be gathered from the context. Every word you read must be understood in the light of the words that come before and after it. What was Jesus talking about? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the son of man be lifted up." Just as the Jews of Nicodemus's day elevated the truth Moses brought down from the mountain above all else, so now must the words of Jesus be so elevated.
:) -
TCassidy said: ↑Not if you, like Nicodemus, actually knew what the Rabbis had written regarding Moses going up Mt. Sinai as his "ascending into heaven."Click to expand...
You impose a meaning of correlation to Moses going up the Mountain to obtain truth, when this is not in the text.
TCassidy said: ↑Remember the primary rules of biblical hermeneutics.
The rule of USAGE: It must be remembered that the bible was written originally by, to and for Jews. The words and idioms must have been intelligible to them - just as the words of Christ when talking to them must have been. What did Nicodemus, a Jew, understand "ascended into heaven" was referring to? Moses, of course. Common knowledge to a Jew of that era.Click to expand...
Still, there is no relevance to what I have said, and ignores the fact that I have already pointed out a very simple fact: the argument aforementioned is weak because of course this Teacher of Israel should have understood the context and meaning of Christ's statement.
Long story short, what Nicodemus was expected to know would be found in the Hebrew Scriptures, not the revelation provided to the Church in the New Testament.
We understand the concept of "again" based on later revelation, Nicodemus would have been limited to what was revealed in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Now, if you can present one thing I have said that violates this rule, please, point it out.
TCassidy said: ↑The rule of CONTEXT: The meaning must be gathered from the context. Every word you read must be understood in the light of the words that come before and after it. What was Jesus talking about? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the son of man be lifted up." Just as the Jews of Nicodemus's day elevated the truth Moses brought down from the mountain above all else, so now must the words of Jesus be so elevated.Click to expand...
And that is the very reason for the posts, lol.
The context defines the meaning, and again, it is my view that Nicodemus grasped a meaning and imposed it into Christ's statement, and was then rebuked for making such an idiotic response.
So tell me, exactly how many times is anōthen translated "again? in the New Testament"
God bless. -
Darrell C said: ↑Could you produce one Theologian that agrees with you, and states that this is John speaking within the text?Click to expand...
Note what it actually says:
"No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven."
1. The clause, "who is in heaven," shows that when this phrase was first constructed, Jesus was already in heaven (post-ascension).
2. The Greek word "αναβεβηκεν" (translated "has ascended") is a perfect active indicative verb. The perfect tense shows that the author intended to convey the idea of having ascended in the past, and remaining in heaven (since the force of the perfect is a past completed action with results that continue to the present). Since John said, "except the Son of Man...", this exception means that the "Son of Man" had ascended, and that He remains in heaven when John wrote this.
3. The one who "has ascended" and who "is in heaven" is the "Son of Man." This expression always refers to Jesus as being human, the descendant of Abraham and David, through Mary -- in the flesh. Thus these could not possibly be the words of Jesus, but must be John's words. This fact demolishes the claim by some commentators that Jesus was claiming omni-presence, that His human "nature" was on earth while His "divine nature" was in heaven (a gnostic concept). -
Darrell C said: ↑And both of us know that Moses going up the mountain and Moses lifting up the Serpent are two entirely different events,Click to expand...
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Darrell C said: ↑I am focusing on your suggestion that Nicodemus verifies a translation of "again" based on his response.Click to expand...
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TCassidy said: ↑Morris, The Gospel According to John, 223. Raymond Brown, The Gospel According to John, 1:132. C.K. Barrett, The Gospel According to St. John (London: SPCK, 1972), 177.
Note what it actually says:
"No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven."
1. The clause, "who is in heaven," shows that when this phrase was first constructed, Jesus was already in heaven (post-ascension).Click to expand...
Nor does it nullify what we do not dispute the Lord said.
TCassidy said: ↑2. The Greek word "αναβεβηκεν" (translated "has ascended") is a perfect active indicative verb. The perfect tense shows that the author intended to convey the idea of having ascended in the past, and remaining in heaven (since the force of the perfect is a past completed action with results that continue to the present). Since John said, "except the Son of Man...", this exception means that the "Son of Man" had ascended, and that He remains in heaven when John wrote this.Click to expand...
If it never happened, it is moot whether it is a completed action or not.
John recounts the Lord statements at the time, and introducing it as commentary of John is, as I said, utterly ridiculous. We know it is recounted at a later date, but, that does not change the fact that all statements refer to statements by Christ, not John.
TCassidy said: ↑3. The one who "has ascended" and who "is in heaven" is the "Son of Man." This expression always refers to Jesus as being human, the descendant of Abraham and David, through Mary -- in the flesh. Thus these could not possibly be the words of Jesus, but must be John's words. This fact demolishes the claim by some commentators that Jesus was claiming omni-presence, that His human "nature" was on earth while His "divine nature" was in heaven (a gnostic concept).Click to expand...
And I would ask you, do you really take a view that Christ was not in Heaven from a perspective of His Deity?
Do the disciples actually see the Father?
John 14
King James Version (KJV)
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Are you saying that you do not believe that the Son was in the Father and the Father in the Son? Do you really separate GOd in this manner?
And about out of time, so hope you will return a speedy response.
God bless. -
Darrell C said: ↑If it never happened, it is moot whether it is a completed action or not.Click to expand...
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TCassidy said: ↑The single event was "Moses in the wilderness."Click to expand...
TCassidy said: ↑Never mind. You either cannot or will not understand what I am saying.Click to expand...
That is true. I will never understand anyone ascribing validity to Nicodemus' response.
There is no "He was partly right" perspective to glean from the Lord's response, which is one that reflects amazement at someone who should have been at the top of their game giving such an absurd response.
""A...The...Teacher of Israel?
"And you do not know these things?"
God bless. -
Darrell C said: ↑Perhaps you should write this fellow and remind him that the Lord states "No man has," lol, effectively nullifying the need for the grammatical confusion.Click to expand...
And again, what part of the exception "but he who descended" didn't you understand?
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