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Featured Were non-Calvinists predestinated to be non-Calvinists?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Sep 9, 2020.

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  1. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Were non-Calvinists predestinated to be non-Calvinists?
    And if yes, why try to change their mind since it is, according to Calvinism, unchangeable?
     
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  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    That's a bit of a loaded question, isn't it?;)
    To be more constructive, I'd prefer to answer it this way:

    " [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
    ( Romans 9:22-24 ).


    " For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
    19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
    20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
    21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
    22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
    23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
    24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
    25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
    26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:
    27 but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    28 and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
    29 that no flesh should glory in his presence.
    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
    31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
    ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 )


    Believe the literality of the words, George...
    John Calvin's "Institutes", nor the writings of his followers or those who resemble them, have anything to do with how they are "interpreted".

    But they are God's words, and the Bible is not just any book.
     
    #2 Dave G, Sep 9, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
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  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I cannot speak for my fellow "Calvinists" ( many of whom are what some call, "Particular Baptists" ) here on the BB, but I'm not here to convince those that are dead-set against what you call "Calvinism" to change their minds...
    Though I would like to see that with all my heart.:)

    I'm here to answer your questions, tell you what I believe and why,
    and let the reader decide whether or not the Scriptures that tell them of God's love for them via His electing grace are true or not.

    My purpose here is not to win debates, "defeat my opponents" and gain the admiration of men;
    It's to present what I know in my heart is the truth, and to let the chips fall where they may...
    While at the same time encouraging my brothers and sisters to believe every word of God, no matter what they say.
    At the same time, I bear you no ill will despite our disagreements.

    These will be my only replies to you in this thread.


    Good evening to you, sir.
    May He bless you in many ways.
     
    #3 Dave G, Sep 9, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
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  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Yes. God is in control of everything that comes to pass ... that IS what Sovereign means.

    Calvinism does not teach that “your” (anyone’s) mind is unchangeable. To claim that would be to argue that no one can ever be saved since Scripture is clear that all men are born slaves to sin and need “change” to be saved. What Calvinism (more accurately the ‘Doctrines of Grace’) teach is that God must change your mind if it is to be changed. Like the people in Acts 2 whose hearts were pierced, or Lydia whose heart was opened, God grants “ears to hear” and then the words of God spoken by Peter or Paul or anyone else can be heard and do their work.

    As others have said, I too am not here to change minds. I am merely here to correct errors about what I believe. Often I have little expectation that the person that I am responding to will listen (not an issue in your particular case, but some simply HATE Calvinism and will not hear anything I say), rather I respond for those that might read it so the truth is presented along with the misconception.
     
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  5. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I find it odd that I am Arminian, but feel the same as you about my own decision. I hope you can understand those that feel compelled by scripture with all their heart to believe God wants all saved, but do not understand His mind to give Him any counsel on His ways.
     
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  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Great question.
     
  7. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Beautiful, spiritual, humble, wise, etc. and did not answer the OP.
     
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  8. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much everyone has taken the "high road" because it's a convenient way to pass by answering the OP, which had nothing to do with whether God uses the flesh or the Spirit to convince someone.
    The question is: were non-Calvinists predestinated to be non-Calvinists? Yes or no?
     
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  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Lord has saved all of us as per the Reformed doctrine of salvation, but he is content to have many of us misunderstand that exact process!
     
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This maybe what Sovereign means but it isn't what scripture says. If this word is found in your Bible then someone other than God put it there.
    MB
     
  11. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    What has that got to do with OP, brother?
     
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  12. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    That is the absolute saddest thing that I have ever heard. YOUR Bible really does not speak of the absolute sovereignty of God?

    A quick bit from our Presbyterian and Dutch Reformed brothers:

    God from all eternity did, by the most wise (Rom. 11:33) and holy counsel of His own will, freely (Rom. 9:15, 18), and unchangeably (Heb. 6:17) ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Eph. 1:11): yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin (James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5), nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures (Matt. 17:12; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28); nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (John 19:11; Prov. 16:33).

    Verses presented for ease of reading:
    • [Rom 11:33-36 NASB] 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him [be] the glory forever. Amen.
    • [Rom 9:14-18 NASB] 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
    • [Heb 6:13-20 NASB] 13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, "I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU." 15 And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. 16 For men swear by one greater [than themselves,] and with them an oath [given] as confirmation is an end of every dispute. 17 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a [hope] both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
    • [Eph 1:9-12 NASB] 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, [that is,] the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
    • [Jas 1:12-18 NASB] 12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which [the Lord] has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
    • [1Jo 1:5 NASB] 5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
    • [Mat 17:9-13 NASB] 9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead." 10 And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" 11 And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.
    • [Act 2:22-23 NASB] 22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this [Man,] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put [Him] to death.
    • [Act 4:27-28 NASB] 27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
    • [Jhn 19:8-12 NASB] 8 Therefore when Pilate heard this statement, he was [even] more afraid; 9 and he entered into the Praetorium again and said to Jesus, "Where are You from?" But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 So Pilate said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" 11 Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has [the] greater sin." 12 As a result of this Pilate made efforts to release Him, but the Jews cried out saying, "If you release this Man, you are no friend of Caesar; everyone who makes himself out [to be] a king opposes Caesar."
    • [Pro 16:33 NASB] 33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.


    God's plans are not frustrated:
    • [Psa 115:1-8 NASB] 1 Not to us, O LORD, not to us, But to Your name give glory Because of Your lovingkindness, because of Your truth. 2 Why should the nations say, "Where, now, is their God?" 3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, The work of man's hands. 5 They have mouths, but they cannot speak; They have eyes, but they cannot see; 6 They have ears, but they cannot hear; They have noses, but they cannot smell; 7 They have hands, but they cannot feel; They have feet, but they cannot walk; They cannot make a sound with their throat. 8 Those who make them will become like them, Everyone who trusts in them.
    • [Eph 1:11 NASB] 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
    • [Psa 33:6-12 NASB] 6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host. 7 He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deeps in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. 9 For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast. 10 The LORD nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples. 11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart from generation to generation. 12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, The people whom He has chosen for His own inheritance.

    God does not suggest or propose, God "decrees" and it comes to pass:
    • [Dan 4:24 NASB] 24 this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king:

    Even the days of our lives are determined by the SOVEREIGN WILL of God:
    • [Jas 4:13-17 NASB] 13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit." 14 Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are [just] a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. 15 Instead, [you ought] to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that." 16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. 17 Therefore, to one who knows [the] right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.
     
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God allowed those like yourself to keep on denying the process he used to save you, but still saved you!
     
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  14. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree, MB.
    I see no mention of the word, "sovereign" anywhere in the Scriptures...

    adjective: sovereign
    possessing supreme or ultimate power.
    "in modern democracies the people's will is in theory sovereign"


    What comes to your mind when you read this?

    " But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." ( Psalms 115:3 ).

    Please see:

    Daniel 4:35
    Psalms 115:3
    Psalms 135:5-6.
    Isaiah 14:27.
    Isaiah 43:13.

    ...and many others.
     
    #14 Dave G, Sep 10, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    [1Ti 6:11-16 NASB] 11 But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance [and] gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him [be] honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
     
  16. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Didn't take long for your topic to get ignored and/or derailed, did it?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    That explains how I missed it:

    " that thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    15 which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    16 who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen."
    ( 1 Timothy 6:14-16 ).

    Still means "sovereign", tho, doesn't it?:)
     
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  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    No.
    That is not what Scripture teaches we are “predestined” to. Both Calvinists and Non-Calvinists are potentially “predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ”.

    You were ordained to be a non-Calvinist, as God works all things according to the “pleasure of His will”.
     
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    What a goofy question.
    How I interpret it is this:
    Were people predestined to misunderstand the Sovereignty of God and be self-centered instead?

    Indeed, God has ordained that Christians will struggle, with their flesh fighting against the Spirit.

    Galatians 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
     
    #19 AustinC, Sep 10, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Just to make my answer clearer ... YES God "predestined" Non-Calvinists to be Non-Calvinists.
    However "Predestined" is not the best choice of words for God's sovereignty outside of "conformation to the image of Christ" (which is more like "salvation" and "sanctification").
     
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