What can unregenerate man do?

The bible clearly teaches election, but not just election. It also teaches who so ever hears may come (some call it free will). I believe both and can explain neither. However I also believe that there is one God, but He exists in three persons which I am also not able to explain.
God and His ways are way out of our league and we can only know about Him and His ways to the extent that He reveals. He has decided not to reveal all to us at this time so when there are those biblical truths that seem to be opposite or to cancel out one another the best thing to do is receive both as being equally true in the mist of limited information. :thumbsup:

 

Thanks "freeatlast" for your heart felt honesty. It is refreshing and encouraging to see this admittance as to the "infinitude" of God. But perhaps, it should not prevent us from using the God granted gift of rational thought to seek to understand and know our God as far as our abilities will allow, while simultaneously being "understanding" with those who reach slightly different conclusions.

 

We all have wondered and should wonder and search these issues to see truth (not to argue, as we/I do many times :)). I bet your job helps you to think often of reality. I sometimes can't get over reality in light of my theology. So many times I lose sight of reality. Either way, I just wanted to chime in and say that people, over time, get more hardened to various degrees. I think we are born sinners and that nature leads to rejection of truth and Christ. Some get a lot worse than others, but in life, if one never turns to Christ, his life will from at birth continue to grow away from Christ and into the sin of the world. Its not a matter of, "Does God elect". It is a matter of the sin that they are in, and does God decide to have mercy on them when He doesn't have to. When looking at it from a humans perspective all of me wants to think God must give everyone a chance, or that surely God wants to save everyone. From God's perspective I believe its quite different. His goal is glory, it is to save those who He chose, and to leave those who He chose in themselves. I do see an aspect of His call to them to come for mercy and a desire for everyone to do good and be forgiven as that is his nature, yet that does not mean that He does all He can to pull them out of the pit. You also must ask why God doesn't do more to save people. This doesn't imply Christ's payment is small, but why not use more power in drawing and revealing things, or why not send angels to them more often? I think the answer is in His viewpoint and choices for His ultimate purpose.

In this Proverb, I do not think it implies God gives some chance and then finally gives up on people because their hearts are hardened. In fact I do not think it is ever to late for someone to turn at His reproof. On the flip side the harder the heart the worse it is and the more grace they need. What I do see is a continual cry out for true Wisdom upon fools who hate it. Fools because of sin nature. Wisdom cries out it everyone and screams repentance but fools reject(Proverbs 1:20-23).

Then the fools come to struggles, to trials of life, they then want help from Wisdom, but it isn't present because they are living in foolishness. It is impossible for help because of their hate for it. Furthermore, Wisdom (God in a sense) will reject them and give them no help because they never repented to true Wisdom. On a side note: if God did help them they would run to their foolishness again. (1:24-33)

I agree with you that Jesus was willing to save Israel, but they were unwilling. He even told the Jews if they would believe that they would be saved i the Gospel of John. I think there is a sense in which God is hurt by evil because it is opposite His nature. He hates sin and wants people to do good. The issue is people are not good and don't. Read the Gospel of John and see how people are viewed. Not a good outcome for men darkness


Getting back to the topic......God saves those who "believe"(salvation is not apart from belief/faith), but Grace is offered to all.

i am I am's!!

Willis[/QUOTE]

 

[/QUOTE]

OK, how do ya know?

 

Christ lives in me. This manifests itself via a love for God and my brother and my neighbor- things I absolutely would not do apart from the life of Christ within me. I have a strong appetite for the things of God.

These are not only my experiences they are also the evidences laid out in Scripture.

I hope this answers your question. Let me know if not, and I'll try again.

 

[/QUOTE]

Very good answer. Dynamite in fact. I especially like this:

This is what it is all about.

Arminians miss it because they think that their idea of what is most important must be the same as God's idea of what is most important. They think that man and his well being is the heartbeat of God. But it is not. The glory of Christ is the heartbeat of God. God cares about all men, but men are a means to an end primarily- that end being the eternal glory of Christ.

Until they get this fixed they will never understand theology proper- ly. (pun intended)

 

He addressed each point...what did he not address? :confused:

Why are you telling Allan (and me since I'm not an Arminian) we are Arminians? You only believe there is black and white and no shades of gray, and who has decided this? I don't believe I can lose or forfeit my salvation (Arminiansim)...so what should I call myself, a calvinist? What is a 4 pointer called...and Arminian? You have much to learn in this debate...

...and herein is your problem, you cannot see the middle ground, which happens to be the truth. God chooses believers and believers choose Christ...not apart from the working of God on the man (part of what Arminianism is).

 

whoops I didnt say that hah, that was a chunk from the post by convicted one I forgot to delete.

 

Luke,

You are incorrect in your assertion of "either/or" argument relative to Calvinism/Arminianism.


Molinism holds to a strong notion of God’s control and an equally firm affirmation of human freedom. In other words Molinism simultaneously holds to a Calvinistic view of a comprehensive divine sovereignty and to a version of free will (called libertarianism) generally associated with Arminianism. As Doug Geivett argues, the fact that Molinism is the one proposal that tries to hold simultaneously to both is a point in its favor, since both “are prima facie true.”

Molinism teaches that God exercises his sovereignty primarily through his omniscience, and that he infallibly knows what free creatures would do in any given situation. In this way God sovereignly controls all things while humans are also genuinely free. God is able to accomplish his will through the use of what Molinists label his middle knowledge. We will look at the Molinist model of God’s knowledge and providence in the next chapter and in the chapter on sovereign election.

So Molinism formulates a radical “compatibilism,”—a “Calvinist” view of divine sovereignty and an “Arminian” view of human freedom—and for this reason is often attacked from both sides of the aisle. Calvinists such as Bruce Ware and Richard Muller consider Molinism to be a type of Arminianism, while Roger Olsen and Robert Picirilli (both card-carrying Arminians) reject Molinism for being too Calvinistic. However, Molinism is attractive to many leading Christian philosophers of our day, such as Alvin Plantinga, Thomas Flint, and William Lane Craig. One of the main reasons is that it demonstrates it is logically possible to affirm divine sovereignty and human freedom in a consistent manner. Even open theist William Hasker, who is no friend to Molinism, admits, “If you are committed to a ‘strong’ view of providence, according to which, down to the smallest detail, ‘things are as they are because God knowingly decided to create such a world,’ and yet you also wish to maintain a libertarian conception of free will—if this is what you want, then Molinism is the only game in town.”

As a matter of fact, that is exactly what I want because I believe Molinism is faithful to the biblical witness. The Molinist model is the only game in town for anyone who wishes to affirm a high view of God’s sovereignty while holding to a genuine definition of human choice, freedom and responsibility. William Lane Craig goes so far as to describe the Molinist notion of middle knowledge as “the single most fruitful theological concept I have ever encountered.” When we apply Molinism to the vexing questions of predestination and election, the reasons for his enthusiasm become evident.

 

I've waded through quite a bit of this thread, but haven't chased down every post or every reference to see if they are all valid. That takes a LOT of time, and unfortunately, for me at least, time is not available right now in those quantities.

In any case, an observation that I've made is this:

God is either sovereign in all things, including His ability to place people in the time, place, situation, frame of mind, circumstance, etc., that they need to be placed into in order to make the gospel real and viable, or He is not.

When I start reading all the postings about human free will, I begin to realize the true depths of our sin of rebellion against God. From the very first words of Scripture until the Book is closed in Revelation, God, God's kingdom, God's right and authority to rule over us as King of all kings, God's transcendence, broken only by God's provision, Immanuel -- God with us -- and God's mercy, grace, and providence, all point to God as preeminent in all things, and that includes our ability to first, know Him, second, be known by Him, and third, be saved by re-birth into a new creation -- of course -- by Him.

We rebel against God by placing SOMETHING or SOMEONE in a position above God, and that is exactly what we do when we claim freedom of human will over and above God's sovereignty.

As I've said before, whatever it is that is above God ought to be what we bow down to worship. If that is man, and man can trump God's sovereignty and kingship (kingdom) then by all means, feel free to do just what the adversary asked -- partake of the "fruit" and "be like God, knowing good and evil..." Bow down to man and call him or her god.

"But as for me and my household, I will serve the Lord..." the God I see all over Scripture is the God who elects, who saves, and who, at the end of the day -- no matter what puny humans think, believe, write, or do -- is GOD... King, Lord, worthy of ALL worship, sovereign, and yes, able to manipulate time, space, and will to bring those who He predestined to grace.

Argue all you like about the power of human free will. In fact, carry your argument right to the Cross and tell Jesus to come down, for He doesn't have to die for your sin unless you want Him to. In essence, that is exactly what is being said by those who "decide" if or when they wish to be saved. They will decide if Jesus hangs on the Cross or not. Right...

What I read in Scripture is that we didn't have the power to tell Jesus anything. "I lay My life down. No one takes it from me..." Neither do we have the power to dictate to Almighty God whether or not we will be saved. "But He will not drag anyone kicking and screaming into heaven..." Exactly correct. Like myself, God will convince, convict, and ultimately convert those who were once enemies and thought they had choice in the matter. I was an avowed enemy of God. I cursed God and died. I told God to get the hell out of my life, and then proceeded to live like the hell I asked for. After seven years of, first, running from God, then second, warring against God, and finally, giving up all belief in God and becoming an atheist, God -- oh praise God! -- came looking for me, and won me over until I loved Him and begged to be His. Oh, how good it was to finally surrender to my Lord and bow down before Him to call Him alone King!

From the tenor of the posts above, there are still a bunch of people who have not done that yet, nor can they, as long as they still hold to some other idolatrous power greater than what they attribute to God -- namely, themselves. May the God of all grace have mercy on their souls.

 

glfrederick

I am daily in need of God's grace, love, mercy and forgiveness for my sin, iniquity and transgression. But my friend, it has absolutely nothing to do with your prideful pontificating about how everyone's view about God is wrong because it does not match yours.

 

Bro Luke,

I know you have been asking a lot of "deep" questions and that's a good thing. It causes us to dig a lot deeper into His word, to prove our beliefs. Furthermore, I really appreciate the kindness you have extended to those of us who are of the opposing view on this matter.

Now getting back to your original question in the first post of this thread. Instead of "John", I am going to insert "Willis", since I can only speak specificially(sp?) about what God did for me:) ! The reason why "Willis" is going to heaven is this. God came to me and showed me in my lost condition. In that lost condition, I could do nothing to save myself. A Godly sorrow set up in my life(2Cor. 7:10) and I began to cry out for His help. In this Godly sorrow, it led me down a road of repentance. While on this road, I thought if I'd do this, He would save me, and I was still lost. I thought that if I then would do this, He would save me...and I was still lost, destined for a devil's hell if God didn't save me. Then about 1:30 AM on May 24, 2007 in the hospital lab at the former place I worked full time, I laid it ALL down at Jesus' feet, and He did the rest. This is why "Willis/John" are going to heaven. We took Jesus at His word, and He saved our dead souls! We chose to believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them which diligently seek Him!!

The reason why Jack died lost was because he failed to repent. Why did he fail to repent? He loved darkness rather than light. Why did he love darkness rather than light? It was his pride in that he wanted to do things his way and not God's. Why did he choose to do things his way and not God's? Who knows? This topic could go in circles for days and not get anywhere, I suppose. But the end result is this, and all would have to concur with this statement. Those that truly believe from the heart will go to heaven, and those who fail to believe, will go to the lake of fire.


i am I am's!!

Willis