What can wash away my sin?

[Linda64]

Well, as I have been pointing out, much of the so-called "Christian society" of the past, including its Fundamentalism, which devised these teaching on music thought that blacks were of the devil as well!! That's where the whole argument about the beat came from, and they were just as hard on jazz and other similar forms in the beginning of last century. The Mormons probably only copied the popular racial ideology of the day, and only put their own spin on it. But we forget that, and try to act as if the Mormons made it up. This should make everyone think, and realize that that society was just as worldly as any other, even if their music was plain and traditional, and there wasn't an open sexual revolution.
So yet again, the distinction that rock is worldly, and the older style isn't has yet to be proven

First of all, Mormons did not make up their teaching on blacks! Here are a couple of sites on the teachings of Mormonism to keep you busy:

http://www.bcmmin.org/
http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism.html

The burden of proof that rock isn't worldly, is on you, Eric. After 20 pages of posts, there has been enough Scripture given to prove that rock music is worldly and that we are told to "walk in the light"--how can we "walk in the light" if we are also "walking in the world"?

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND BAD MUSIC
by Alan Ives

We are going to try and nail down how to tell the difference between good and bad music, especially if the words are O.K. How can I tell if something is sensual or not, if something is spiritual or carnal? I think of a fellow that didn't know anything about music, and he said to me: "When I read my Bible, when I pray, when I listen to preaching, the Holy Spirit teaches and ministers to me and comforts me, rebukes, instructs, corrects me--whatever it is that I need. But I can tell that the Holy Spirit of God is working in me." And he said, "When somebody sings a song, I expect the Holy Spirit to do the same thing through that song."

I had sung a blues arrangement of "No One Ever Cares For Me Like Jesus," and he said, "Never sing that one in church again." This was years ago.

This man could hardly play "She'll Be Coming 'round the Mountain" on the harmonica, but he told me that, and I promised him that I would never sing that song that way again.

This young man is responsible for his whole family coming to Christ. And the entire time that I have known him, he has spent time alone with the Lord and has put the Lord ahead of any friendship that he has with another man.

When we're all done with this thing, if too much is scrambled--I will try to make it simple--but if it is scrambled, you can always just ask the Lord. Say, "Holy Spirit, teach me; is this song good or bad?" If you have a question, ask the Lord. "Try the spirits" is what 1 John 4 says, "whether they be of God." You'll be able to tell. Some songs are so bad you'll know immediately you ought not to listen to them. Others are more difficult to tell. I still have questions about certain songs I listen to. There are some songs that seem to have a good message, but something doesn't seem right. We want to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit, and if there is something wrong in the song, we don't want to sing it.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/Ives1.html

Read that entire article. If one really wants to know the difference, they will--otherwise the words will simply be "empty" words.

 

[Eric B]

First of all, Mormons did not make up their teaching on blacks!

That's what I said! I was pointing out how racism (including the Cain or Canaan doctrine) was very popular in the past. That, again, is where this teaching on music comes from. I always found it amazing that many conservative Chritaisnw ould mention the racism of Mormons in their articles on them, yet completely ignore the place it had in the history of their own Churches and cultural circles, and many perpetuated it through teachings on music and some political issues.

The burden of proof that rock isn't worldly, is on you, Eric. After 20 pages of posts, there has been enough Scripture given to prove that rock music is worldly and that we are told to "walk in the light"--how can we "walk in the light" if we are also "walking in the world"?

This is basically how your "scripture" (proof-texting) has worked (http://members.aol.com/etb700/ccm.html):

From what we see, the entire argument hinges on taking the negative charges, claims, admissions, etc. people have made about the history or supposed fruits of rock; holding that up to scripture, and of course, in such case, the contemporary styles always fail to stand. (e.g. rock causes or is connected with sin, sin is condemned in scripture, so rock is anti-scriptural)
But considering such extreme statements as [people make against rock] plus the fervor in which this "battle" is waged, it seems we need much better scriptural support than what is being presented here. How can anyone make such a pronouncement about God's nature (based solely on what people say), when God has said no such thing anywhere in His Word? It is basically a straw man argument. All of these claims about rock music are not even unanimous or universal. There are many other people in science, the media, and music who do not say it is bad. Who do we believe? Whoever happens to support our position? This is truly shaky ground to be staking such an issue upon.
A good principle to follow is that any issue this important will be clearly delineated in scripture. Don't you think God would have specifically condemned rhythmic beats if they were so offensive to Him, and as destructive as these critics make them out to be? (Especially if it was so specifically associated with the demonism and idolatry of pagan tribes, who often came into contact with and affected both Israel and the Church!) Salvation, new birth, the doctrines about Christ's birth, death, resurrection and return, and the Christian life are all directly taught, and repeated throughout scripture. [Instead, God accepted rhytmic music and worship from David!]

Read that entire article. If one really wants to know the difference, they will--otherwise the words will simply be "empty" words.

I've read Ives, and all the rest of them. (He himself may be civil, but you all want to cry about "venom"; whatever we say is nothing compared to what we have to endure from other writers on biblebelievers.com!) Appealing to "pray and ask the Holy Spirit to convict you" does no good in this argument, because WHEN people do that, and are not convicted into a traditonal-only/no rock position, then the critics deny they have really asked God, or assume that God has "given them over, and will tell them what they want to hear" (Godwin).
So then we're right back to square one. You all act as "the priest", with us just wrong, no matter what anyone says, or the Bible does or does not say, and have still not proven that your own style is not "worldly", since it too was once used in bars, and other ungodly secular settings.

Also as far as us not proving our side with more scripture, a long time ago here, Superdave pointed out: "The reason we do not post scripture left and right, is because what is posted as scripture we agree with, it is the philosophy of man that has been extrapolated from the few scriptures that reference music that we have to spend most of our time dealing with. There is no discussion in scripture of styles of music... There is only our own imagined theories on what they must be talking about in the verses. It's amazing to me, that even some of the best Bible expositors throw caution to the wind when interpreting scriptural principles about music. They would never make up so much nonsense about any other area of scripture, but they squish the scriptures into their own mold, and declare the 'truth' about Godly music." I then added: "I myself have always thought that arguments such as this are more about what the Bible does not say, than what it does say; so that is why we end up 'having less' scripture. Instead, [unfortunately] scripture winds up being used most by those trying to read something into them".

 

[Eric B]

Since the page is probably going to close soon (unless more capacity for posts has come with the new system); I might as well post the summary of fallacies, since people here just aren't getting it.

Key: S statement/scripture proof-text; C conclusion; A answer

---------------------Separation from world/Flesh and spirit
S We must "separate from the world" (1 John 2:15, James 4:4, Rom.12:2); sing a "new song"
C we can't use any style used by "the world's music"; CCM only takes "world's music" we listened to in our "old life" and changes the words
A so called 'good styles' are from/used by 'the world" (English royalty sound, orchestra, etc. All things in world not bad in themselves (marriage-1 Cor.7:33); just telling us not to get too enmeshed that our spiritual life suffers; a lot of CCM is "new in character".
---------------------
S if we don't set such strict standards, it will lead to "anything goes"
C We should rule out anything remotely associated with the world to be safe; CCM removes our established standards and is destroying the Church
A God gave us consciences which are led by the Holy Spirit where the written Word is not explicit. This is what would "lead us into all truth" (John 16:13), not tradition, which can be wrong (Mark 7:7-9)
--------------------
S "Flesh & spirit are contrary to one another" (Galatians 5:17)
C any music with a rhythm that is "pleasing to the flesh" is bad and unfit for Christians
A ignores the lively nature of Hebrew worship music and dancing in the Psalms; not all fleshy pleasure is bad; "flesh" in passage referring to "natural" unregenerate nature.

———————————Guilt by Association———————————
S We must "abstain from every appearance of evil" (1 Thess. 5:22)
C The beats of rock, jazz and related styles once came in handy for voodoo, sexuality and rebellion, so obviously the beat causes or is caused by these things, and it doesn't look right for a Christian to have anything to do with them
A These were evil uses of the beats. Any evil can be committed with certain tools that come in handy, but the music styles do not have enough of an evil connotation to enough people to argue that they are universally evil.
-------------------
S "The world" acknowledges that the beat is demonic and that CCM is no different
C charges of cultural bias are only distracting us from the real issues. If the world even acknowledges that it's bad, then it's bad.
A Christianity has always reclaimed things of the world for Christ, and people who make these statements see no difference in it, period. ("To the impure, nothing is pure" because "even their conscience is defiled"— Titus 1:15) Yet, others are drawn by it.
-------------------
S When rock first began, all the Christians were against it; yet today the Church accepts it
C This shows that this contemporary Church has turned away from the Word of God
A The Christians of the past weren't always right. There was a lot of ignorance and unnecessary fear that was not from God's Word that the Church has had to repent of
———————————Purpose and "acceptability" of music———————————
S God did not accept just any kind of worship in the Bible
C we cannot just sing anything to God, so CCM is bad, while TCM (traditional...) is good;
A God was very strict when He prescribed explicit details regarding certain elements of worship. These are not present regarding music style, and in fact, lively rhythmic music was accepted by Him, at least at certain times. (i.e. it was never regarded as universally "unfit")
---------------------
S music is not 'neutral'; certain sounds cannot convey certain messages;
C Once again, CCM is bad while TCM is good. Prominent rhythm cannot convey Gospel message and distracts from worship;
S music should be "Christlike";
C serene, stately music is "Christlike", "humble" and "submissive", while rock beats are "rebellious", "loud", "warlike", "proud", "demonic", and "sensual".
A All of this is a general assumption that is subject to the listener's conscience. There are some variations that may be unfit, but to rule out all contemporary music is going way too far. Traditional music has pride and bad influences behind it as well (Platonism), lively beats can represent celebration, spiritual warfare, emphasis (as in loud preaching) etc.
--------------------
S music should be based on what pleases God, not our selfish 'preferences'
C CCM is based on preferences, TCM is based on what pleases God. So people have no excuse to listen to the former and should give it up and listen to the latter whether they like it or not (God will make them like it if they "allow Him to make all things new") This is the "offense of the Gospel", the "narrow path" of Jesus, and the "hard truths of scripture"
A traditional music fits cultural preference as well; not satisfactorily proven to be "God's music"
--------------------
S God is revealed in scripture as a musical being. Satan was also created as a musical being; "music is what he knows best"
C This is an ultimate issue. The very character of God is at stake. He is very particular about styles, so we have to be particularly strict in this issue. This is one of Satan's biggest tools of deception so we cannot take any chances. When he fell, his music became perverted, and he was clever enough to create lively rhythms in order to please man's flesh and thus deceive him with it.
A Both lively and stately music can promote Satan's as well as God's agendas; the flesh as well as the spirit.
———————————Effects of Music———————————
S So many Christians' walks have been messed up by Christian rock. It leads them right back to secular rock, rebellion, sin and worldliness
C The music has an unavoidable negative influence on all people. Therefore it is no good for anyone.
A Different people are susceptible to different effects, even physical/emotional/psychological ones. The Bible clearly gives us liberty to see how it affects us in order to tell whether it is bad or not for us.
———————————Unscriptural Assertions———————————
S Abortion, pornography, and marijuana are not mentioned in the Bible, yet we know they are wrong
C The Bible doesn't HAVE to discuss music styles (neither does the Spirit HAVE to convict); you all know the contemporary styles are just plain wrong
A The three sins mentioned above do directly violate, respectively, the letter of the 6th commandment, the spirit of the seventh (Matt.5), and mind altering drugs would fall under the same category as drunkenness in Eph.5:18, and is directly condemned as "sorcery" in Rev.9:21 (Gk.pharmakia). The ban on music has no comparable scriptural support and is based purely on conjecture.
-------------------
S in orchestra, rhythm (percussion) is only 4% of the music
C rhythm based music is "rebellious" against the "standards" of "all good music"
A this is pure personal preference and cultural difference—comparing one secular style to another
___________________

Critics: We must have this "Philosophy of music" Scripture: [SIZE=+1]"Beware, lest anyone spoil you through vain philosophy and deceit after the traditions of men" (1 Timothy 2:8)[/SIZE]

Also see the doagram of the cycle tese arguments always boil down to: http://members.aol.com/etb700/ccm.html#cycle