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Featured What Do These Passages Teach?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Jan 12, 2021.

  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 10:1 says this:

    For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

    This sets up the contrast between the Mosaic/Sinai Covenant and the New Covenant.

    We can then read verses 19-39, which express that the readers were or had suffered persecution, which caused some to stop attempting to meet together (an interesting warning in light of todays covid restrictions). The next paragraph is a warning to church members to persevere in the faith. We see that those who do not persevere in the faith are those who were never of the faith. For those who were never of faith, it is a fearful thing on the day of judgment. Yet, the last verse of the chapter is a clear encouragement to the person whom God has gifted faith. We don't shrink back, we are not destroyed and we preserve our souls.

    Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

    For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. For,"Yet a little while,
    and the coming one will come and will not delay; but my righteous one shall live by faith,
    and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

    But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.


    I thank the OP for bring up such a wonderful passage that solidifies the Perseverance of the Saints.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Did I say the warning was for nothing? Nope. I explained the passages.

    If you trample underfoot the blood of Christ, that sin leads to death.

    But what about the born anew believer, what if he or she builds on their foundation of Christ with worthless ministry? They still enter heaven but has one escaping from a fire, bringing little or no rewards with them.
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    this passage in Hebrews, as does the one in 1 John, is about spiritual and not physical death.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Did anyone suggest otherwise? Nope
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    It says "blood of the covenant" which means they were at the Lord's Table communing with saints. Their joining the church sanctified, not saved, them, just as the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband. She isn't saved by him.
     
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  6. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

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    Jesus purchased the church with His blood (Acts 20:28). The Spirit is given as a pledge until that purchased possession is fully redeemed (Ephesians 1:14). All humankind is not sealed with the Spirit.
     
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  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    you are severely confused...:Cautious:Sneaky
     
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  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    instead of your clever remarks, why not say what these 2 passages teach!
     
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  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    The short answer is that these passages teach that one who rejects the Gospel after a tryst with the church is beyond the evangelical scope and influence of the church, and is apostate. It's not impossible for God to convert such an one, but it is impossible to win one through ordinary means like preaching.

    The Apostle was specifically referring to those who left the church to return to Judaism as a means of acceptance to God.
     
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  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    These people are SAVED not unbelievers
     
  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    No they are not for nothing. They say to me the Lord hasn't got the time to waist on those who aren't sure to begin with what they want. Many I suspect are only toying with the idea of Salvation
    I don't know about you but man does not normally leave what he loves most. I love the Lord Jesus more than anything on the planet. There is nothing that could make me turn my back on Him and leave. When we really Love Christ even more than our selves we will not fall. People only fall when they do not really Love the Lord.
    Those that leave were never in love with Christ They were only infatuated. Real love last for ever. It isn't like you can fall out of love with Christ because if a persons love is that weak they don't know what love really is.
    MB
     
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    These people are saved that is truly born again
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I gave two verses. 1 Peter 1:2, ". . . through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: . . ." And 2 Thessalonians 2:13, ". . . to salvation through sanctification . . . ."
     
  14. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    He's addressing Hebrew believers who have a history, as a nation, of going back on their promises towards God.

    To me, in the same manner that the recipients of the Law of Moses were sanctified by the blood of that covenant ( Exodus 24:7-8 ), those that profess Christ have become partakers of the new, but that partaking is understood in the earthly sense for those who profess with the lips but in works deny Him ( Titus 1:16 ) and in both the earthly sense and the spiritual sense for those whom God has chosen to salvation ( Psalms 65:4, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
    In addition, all those that profess Christ have entered into the sufferings and persecutions that all believers do, whether they are "wheat" or "tares"...

    But ultimately, keeping in mind the parables of the sower and of the tares ( Matthew 13 ) and that there are both true believers and false ones, this passage is admonishing the Hebrew believers ( and "believers" ) of their position before the Lord.

    For those who sin willfully ( not those whose "inner man" does not will to sin, but only their "outer man" or wicked flesh does per Romans 7:14-25 and Galatians 5:17 ),
    there remains no more sacrifice for sins.

    Christ was only crucified once for sin, and all those that He died for are secure.
    If His sheep could fall away, then it would require that He go to the cross again for them.

    But those who fall away that are not His sheep, only have eternal wrath to look forward to.:Sick
     
    #34 Dave G, Jan 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  15. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Same as above.
    As I see it, this is preached to a "mixed crowd" of all who profess Christ...

    Just as the Lord Jesus preached to the nation of Israel in John 6 and most left Him at the end of the chapter when the word began to offend them, so too is this preached.
    The last one you quoted has always given me trouble, at least in the past, and I now understand it as speaking with reference to physical death, not spiritual.
    But to answer your question above:

    Christ shall lose none of the ones that His Father has given Him ( John 6:39 ), who were drawn by the Father and will be raised up at the last day ( John 6:44 ) and who hear His voice ( John 8:43-47, John 10:27-29 )... so, those who have been sealed to the day of redemption ( Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30 ) shall never perish ( John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24, John 10:28 ) and cannot be lost.

    The elect are secure, no matter what.

    In other words, those who have believed from a changed heart are God's children, while those who have "believed" from an unchanged heart and have only done so superficially, are the children of the devil and will evidence that they are "tares", sown in Christ's field by His enemy, by falling away under trials and tribulations.

    Only the ones the Lord has kept by His own power ( 1 Peter 1:5 ) will endure to the end in their faith.
    "If Saved, Always Saved".
     
    #35 Dave G, Jan 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  16. Larry the Logger

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    I agree that the writer of Hebrews is speaking to believers and that it is intended for believers. So, what about falling away from grace? Is that the same thing as loss of salvation from the lake of fire? I believe Scripture has the answer, directly and with mountains of illustrations, that the answer is no. (However, as an aside, I think we are all believers here on this board, why get close enough to find out either way?) Can a believer lose rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, yet still receive a resurrection body? Most definitely. An easy cursory glance at Revelation 2-3 makes that pretty clear.

    However, for me, the best illustration that a believer can fall away from grace, yet receive a resurrection body, who also cannot lose his or her eternal salvation from the lake of fire, is the Book of Romans, particularly the first two chapters. Paul makes it clear in Romans 1:7, he is talking to believers, NOT unbelievers...but believers. Those same believers do the same things as the unbelievers about whom Paul refers in Romans 1:18-32. Paul says they do the same things in Romans 2:1. Paul doesn't address the head belief or heart belief nonsense and no where does he suggest anywhere in Romans that he doubts there salvation faith. They are believers, still believers because Paul addresses them as "set apart ones" in Romans 1:7. Paul reprimands them as believers in Romans 2, and sets them off on the way to change their minds with the rest of ch 2 and then the rest of the book.

    We get stuck on the term "salvation" to only mean what happens when we believe in Christ for the first time like the Philippian jailer did in Acts 16:31, and then apply that meaning throughout the Bible. What does it mean in Philippians 2:12? Obviously it can't mean the same thing it meant in Acts 16:31 because Paul is addressing people who have already believed in Christ for salvation from the lake of fire per Phiilippians 1:1. They're already set apart ones. The salvation in Phil 2:12 is something we do after we are saved and its results based on our obedience, determines whether or not we receive rewards per Revelation 2-3, or we receive a shoe shine kit and head out towards the outer darkness in the kingdom of the Father, waiting for the non-tasty healing leaves exported to the nations (plural) outside the New Jerusalem. Those unrewarded, resurrection bodied believers in the outer darkness, away from the New Jerusalem are the ones who fell from grace. How do we work out our own salvation since we had nothing to do with our salvation from the lake of fire (and except for the non-meritorious decision to believe like the Philippian jailer, we had nothing to do with it)? Righteousness by faith and obedience under the power of the Holy Spirit which is still grace. Not doing that after salvation is falling away from grace and resultant loss of eternal rewards and NOT loss of eternal salvation.
     
  17. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no.
    • Church-age Christians cannot lose their salvation because it's entirely by faith.
    • Tribulation believers can lose their salvation because it's by faith and works.
    I know, everyone here will disagree, but no one will have another answer that doesn't mess around with the words and doesn't wrest the words.
     
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    who was Jesus Christ speaking to in Revelation chapters 1-3, the Seven Churches? saved, or unsaved?
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    cannot avoid the 2 passages in the OP which you and most of the others have done! What about the "Brother" that sins unto spiritual death in 1 John?
     
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    are these used for unbelivers?
     
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