Hi Abiyah;
A quote from you;
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(2) Some teach that if one is truly saved, they
wouldn't do weird things in the first place.
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My reply;
The problem is we all sin. I have met a few that said they didn't but Christ himself would disagree.The biggest problem I think with most people today is that they sometimes won't forgive or they don't know how. No one ever said it is easy. But loosing ones salvation is mentioned in several places once as I mentioned in Mathew the other in Romans where Paul is talking about being cut out of the vine for boasting and in Revelations for taking away part of the Bible or, ("erasing part of it"). My security is that it is my hope that I would never turn away from him. Oh sure regretfully, I still sin and I make no excuse for it, ("but I do ask for forgiveness"). I find few days if anytime in my life there isn't something we all need forgiveness for. I do the best that I can to keep from sin. Just Like Paul he wrestled with it all the time, I mean his flesh with spirit. In these bodies we have right now there is little chance for perfection. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't try. If we Love Him we should be doing our best for Him.
Romanbear
What if you're wrong and we are right?
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Feb 25, 2003.
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Again, Bill, as I have said: I am mostly familiar
with holiness-Arminianism. From that vantage
point, you have created a false dichotomy. To
me, this is like saying, "What if oranges are really
watermelon?" Or more closely, "What if dying in
an accident is really obing the dabilitor on a
cosmop frimp?" Do you really think you can
convnce someone about a concept by using
sometihng they do not believe? It isn't going to
happen. But it does amuse some.
I am not, however, amused by the idea. 8o|
Thank you for the compliment on the photo, though.
I, uh, have been around for a while! -
Romanbear --
These are the things I don't understand about
non-holiness-Arminianism:
1. Do they believe that when they sin, they always
lose their savation?
2. What happens if you, in a weak moment, gossip,
and immediately, you are struck by a car and
killed: do you go to Hell?
3. Do some sins not have the ability to cause you
to lose you savation, but others do? If so, which
sins are too small to cause the loss, and which are
big enough?
4. What verse(s) best define(s) sin in you opinion?
5. Do you believe that the BIble differentiates
between its uses of the words "sin"' and "sins"?
6. Can an infant go to Hell for Adam's sin before
they have commited sin themselves? -
So, if you don't maintain good works you should not believe that you are eternally secure.
The problem with this debate is that we have absolutely know idea if a person's profession of faith in Christ is sincere or not. Only God knows that. Therefore, I believe that we should teach what the Bible says concerning those who do not "continue in the faith" and those who don't "produce fruit" or those who don't "continue in belief." And not try to sugar coat it by teaching "once saved always saved regardless of your behavior."
Instead, we should teach "your saved if you perserve to the end." Or "be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either...Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. OUCH!
I believe this doctrine of "once saved always saved" mixed with "no Lordship salvation" has produced the "easy believism" that is sweeping our country. We've got a bunch of teenagers who think they have a ticket to heaven and free licence to sin on their way. The Bible was careful not to present the gospel in this manner because God knew it would produce these types of fruits from weak minded, immature believers. That is why we see such strong teaching that links behavior to salvation. It's not teaching salvation by works, its teaches working out our salvation.
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Salvation is of the Lord. Jonah 2:9
(Psa 20:6 KJV) Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.
(Acts 13:48 KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
If Calvinism is wrong then the vote of God in the Salvation of a soul can be defeated by the devil and man. Herschell Hobbs said it this way, "God votes for you, the devil votes against you, and you cast the deciding ballot."
Only one problem with that theology. It puts Satan and Man on equal footing with God in Salvation. -
Ah! Calvin and Hobbs!
8oD -
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Everyone should be sure of their doctrine regardless of the position that he or she takes on particular Biblical issues.
Also, I don't think there is "no harm done" by having a wrong Biblical position. That would be to say that doctrine doesn't matter at all if Brother Bill's premise is accepted as true...which it is not. -
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But if Calvinism is wrong, and Arminians are correct, just consider how much more damage has been done to the cause of Christ through the doctrines and extreme practices of Calvinism.
That is a point that should be considered. Why? If a Calvinist is reading this board and thinks to himself, I'm 99% sure I'm right about this stuff, he should ask himself is it worth the risk of even 1% that I might be the cause of someones hardening to the gospel or turning away from the faith with this possibly false doctrine?
Is it really worth that chance? Be a closet calvinist if you want to but don't risk disunity and causing confusion to immature believers and the lost just so you can show them how smart you are.
What eternal benefits are gained by being a Calvinist? NONE. If your right, you just get the pleasure of being right when you get to heaven with all of the other elect ones. All the Calvinist can get together and sing a round of "shanana....hey...hey....goodbye" and rub it in the face of all of us stupid Arminians. That's all you get, and that won't last for eternity, because that would be hell for us
If your wrong, you see all the blood on your hands because of the people you confused and caused to turn away from the faith, or those you gave a false sense of eternal security by teaching "once saved always saved" but who really never followed Christ at all.
Don't you see the ramafications of what you teach, if it is false? That is serious! Therefore, I'm just asking you all to be careful, someone's eternity may rest on it. -
Buddists have been around for hundreds of years too Ken, should I just assume that they are right and not even attempt to debate them or convince them as Paul tried to do the pagans in Greece?
Ahhh, why bother everyones going to be saved anyway, we can't affect that so who in Hell cares? I promise that everyone in Hell cares! -
2)Please don't ever say that about me. I believe like a Calvinist and walk with my Lord as a Calvinist.
3)Yep, Arminianism is certainly based on works.
4)I am 100% sure that salvation is 100% the work of God alone.
5)Salvation is not a matter of chance. Apparently, Arminianism teaches that it is. -
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That's the point you're missing. God's word is the truth. I believe what I believe because that's the truth I get from God's word - I do not take into consideration what affect it will have to believe it, because that has nothing to do with what is true and what isn't. Whatever that truth is, it's true no matter what you think the consequences of believing it may be. I trust that the truth always brings about the best consequences because the truth comes from God. What more do I need to know?
As I said, the suggestion "you should believe this because it will have a better result" is straight from hell. You can put that in front of lots of things and will be perfectly true from man's perspective. "Reject Christ and you'll have an easier time getting along with most other people..." for example. You say you're talking about an outcome that is more noble? Says you! Given the choice, I'd rather go with what the Word of God says, and let God decide what good comes of it, not what Mr. Bill thinks about the good or bad that comes of it. -
so that the fewest number of people will be there[hell] Is that number changed based upon what Arminians teach? That's a new doctrine.
So Calvinist believe that the elect will ultimately be saved unless influence by an Arminian and then they might be lost! What is this nonsense?????? -
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The Bible is a 2000 year old document that we don't contain the original manuscripts for, it has been translated from a foreign language that currently is not actively spoken in our world. Is it possible your interpretation of that Word is wrong due to your lack of knowledge of the original language and the context in which it was written? Not to mention all the logical and textual problems that your doctrinal system affords; and the numerous scriptural contradictions that must continually be reconciled to fit into your system. It baffles me that you are so arrogant to think you could not be mistaken about your beliefs in light of all these things. You better hope your right, otherwise your arrogance may cost someone their life. I pray that is not the case! -
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