No, I posted the exact wording of Acts 12 and said it was a beautiful picture of our salvation. An allegory exhibits a hidden meaning. I did not say there was a hidden meaning. I said it paints a beautiful picture of our deliverance.
What is Total Depravity, part deux?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SovereignGrace, Sep 17, 2018.
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It is not a mere intellectual agreement but rather a conviction of the heart that Christ died on the cross for my sins, was buried, and rose again, according to the Scriptures.
Those who think "believe" when used soteriologically means only intellectual assent are likely to miss heaven by 18 inches. The distance from the head to the heart. :( -
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
I'm not talking about intellectual assent. -
Also, you are aware of what Paul was saying in Romans 10:9? He was addressing the Jews who had fled Jerusalem and settled in Rome. He told them they were lacking in one area. They believed in God the Father. They even believed in God the Holy Spirit. But they denied that Jesus was the LORD of the Old Testament.
He told them that to complete their faith they would have to believe (not head knowledge, but a heart felt faith) that Jesus was LORD. -
Or, What does "Faith" mean since you used Faith/believe synonymously
Ah, here you said...
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2. And how is perfectly holy different from holy?
Hopefully, you don't consider these two questions to be trolling. You must be talking about some other questions. I'm not sure what they are. I don't think it matters.
Marty -
Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite SupporterRevmitchell said: ↑Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.Click to expand... -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Well, this thread, as with the previous one, shows who holds to total depravity and who does not.
Those who hold to it understand it is God who must first quicken the dead(nekros) sinner. That he was a spiritual corpse, rotten to the core.
Those who oppose it see man is not dead in sin, but has gout in their big toe, which makes them limp. They have a little island of righteousness that was unaffected by the fall. On that little island, they can make a free will decision to be saved...or not. The onus of their salvation is not on the cross of the Christ, but on the exercising of their free will...or not.
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.[John 5:21]
Wait, the lost ain’t really spiritually dead, so the Christ can’t give life to those who already have life. He was surely misquoted by John.
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,[Ephesians 2:1] even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,[Ephesians 2:5,6] Wait, we weren’t dead so He couldn’t make us alive, neither could He raise us up with Him. Paul, don’t you know you can’t resurrect those who are alive? -
MartyF said: ↑I'm pretty sure these insults are for me.Click to expand...
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite SupporterRevmitchell said: ↑Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.Click to expand...
You stopped at this verse because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.[Romans 1:19] However, go on from there For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.[Romans 1:20-23] They took what they saw and attributed it to idols. That’s what ‘form of corruptible man and of birds and of four-footed animals and crawling creatures’ mean. They attributed what is God as some idol. -
SovereignGrace said: ↑Well, this thread, as with the previous one, shows who holds to total depravity and who does not.
Those who hold to it understand it is God who must first quicken the dead(nekros) sinner. That he was a spiritual corpse, rotten to the core.Click to expand...
SovereignGrace said: ↑Those who oppose it see man is not dead in sin, but has gout in their big toe, which makes them limp.Click to expand...
SovereignGrace said: ↑They have a little island of righteousness that was unaffected by the fall.Click to expand...
SovereignGrace said: ↑On that little island, they can make a free will decision to be saved...or not. The onus of their salvation is not on the cross of the Christ, but on the exercising of their free will...or not.Click to expand...
SovereignGrace said: ↑Wait, we weren’t dead so He couldn’t make us alive, neither could He raise us up with Him. Paul, don’t you know you can’t resurrect those who are alive?Click to expand... -
SovereignGrace said: ↑I agree with this. However, that chapter is not a treaty to be saved by what ppl see via natural revelation.
You stopped at this verse because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.[Romans 1:19] However, go on from there For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.[Romans 1:20-23] They took what they saw and attributed it to idols. That’s what ‘form of corruptible man and of birds and of four-footed animals and crawling creatures’ mean. They attributed what is God as some idol.Click to expand...
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.[Romans 1:20-23]
In other words because God had shown and revealed what he has done through creation that alone should have rightly moved them to seek God and call upon him. If there was absolutely no way they could do this then how is it you can claim they wouldn't have an excuse?
We're talking about God putting things forth and expecting and holding accountable to ones to respond to that very thing. If God created a painting and told people they need to tell what they see if they were totally blind and not able to perceive according to your books they're without excuse? They should be able to perceive?
For the very reason God said they were without excuse has to mean they could have responded in a positive way to God at least in seeking him or calling upon him. You would have it though that they're locked in they can't move or choose anything different! So why would God say they're without excuse? The fact is you and other Calvinists would NEVER EVER do this if it were any other subject but when you get into religion you allow your minds to twist in ways which are why defy reasonable thought. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite SupporterSovereignGrace said: ↑Well, this thread, as with the previous one, shows who holds to total depravity and who does not.
Those who hold to it understand it is God who must first quicken the dead(nekros) sinner. That he was a spiritual corpse, rotten to the core.
Those who oppose it see man is not dead in sin, but has gout in their big toe, which makes them limp. They have a little island of righteousness that was unaffected by the fall. On that little island, they can make a free will decision to be saved...or not. The onus of their salvation is not on the cross of the Christ, but on the exercising of their free will...or not.
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.[John 5:21]
Wait, the lost ain’t really spiritually dead, so the Christ can’t give life to those who already have life. He was surely misquoted by John.
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,[Ephesians 2:1] even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,[Ephesians 2:5,6] Wait, we weren’t dead so He couldn’t make us alive, neither could He raise us up with Him. Paul, don’t you know you can’t resurrect those who are alive?Click to expand... -
InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite SupporterRevmitchell said: ↑This entire post is a strawmanClick to expand...
Quite creative metaphors though. I did like the part about partial depravity adherents with infected toes stumbling about their Eden-like deserted islands until they decide to save themselves.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk -
InTheLight said: ↑Yes it is.
Quite creative metaphors though. I did like the part about partial depravity adherents with infected toes stumbling about their Eden-like deserted islands until they decide to save themselves.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using TapatalkClick to expand... -
JonShaff said: ↑We see things differently :)
That's about as far as it can go.
When a person Believes God at His Word Concerning the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, He is regenerated. After regeneration, THEN can a person understand the realities of the Kingdom of Heaven.Click to expand...
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