Sherrie,
"Oh but I am not trying to. That is why I have asked you the question."
Oh but you are. You see the problem is you don't care what our answers are, you reject them out of hand.
"What could the pope who has this superior connection to God, possibly do that was a sin?
**** Hmmm. This is a big red herring for you Sherrie. I am going to ask you to really concentrate on what I am about to say. We have the New Testament scriptures. They are the word of God correct. You would say they are infallible, I would say they are inerrant. There is a differnce but we can get in to that later. But from your infallible perspective here is the problem. The Apostle Peter has two books in that Bible. Are they the infallible word of God? I think you would say yes. Problem is he was still a sinner as we see in Galatians where he caters somewhat to the Jews and Paul opposes him to his face. Are you willing to throw those two books out over this? I hope not.
But then you have a bigger problem. You see the Apostle Paul has more writings in the NT then any other of the sacred writers. Some of the Protesstant favorites (which I hold dear to my heart) Romans and Ephesians were written by him. There is a problem. If a man that is "in tune "with God such that he writes and speaks infallibly cannot sin such as you say, then what of this verse where Paul admits his sinfullness.
Romans 7:19
For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
He says he does EVIL. He sins Sherrie. Are we going to throw out his books.
Now you and I will both agree that there is no more scripture being written. But is infallible speach taught in the Bible. Jesus says to his disciples:
Luke 10:16
"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."
So apparently there was infallible speach going on also with these sinful men. To say that the only things that were written were infallible is a rejection of this verse. Now is this Charism possible today? I would say yes. You would say no. But your arguement against it, that the Pope is a sinner and so he cannot speak infallibly, I think if you are honest you will have to agree, is flawed.*****
And the sins he does....doesn't that make you wonder what, and if they were those things that have brought you where you are today. What if he had purposely been calling the wrong shots, and was repenting of them, Wouldn't you be upset?
**** Let me let you in on a little secret sherrie. I am not tuned in to radio free vatican every day. I do not wait for the Papal blessing on the morning so that I can get out of bed and take a shower. I take my leadership from the Pope and the Church but test it well against scripture and tradition contrary to the ideas about me that have been pumped in to your mind. And in truth there are few Papal statements that are considered infallible. He is the final arbiter when there are disputes in the Church on critical issues of faith and morals. I do consider his wisdom when I hear him speak. ***
Why isn't anyone but a catholic College in 1967 asking questions?
*** I said last night to another poster, my fait is in Jesus Christ and that he guides his Church even when the leaders committ sins. So what questoins should I be asking? The Pope is a sinner. He goes to confession. That shows me he has a desire to root those sins, no matter how small or large they may be out of his life. In knowing Catholics who go to confession and those who don't I can tell you which group I would trust more and which show a more Christian spirit toward there fellow man. If you somehow think confessoin is not a soul searching experience that does not involve thoughts of repenting to God for our sins, you are sadly mistaken. Those who go to confession are not neccessarily bigger sinners but are more aware of their daily sins and the need to repent of them. ***
If someone makes moral decisions for you, why aren't you questioning them? Yes, yes, I know they are decisions for a church. But you go to that church and you live by those rules. Why?
*** Once again, I have to say I don't understand the question. Every single religious leader in the world is a sinner. That does not make all there decisions bad. Paul says in Hebrews:
Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.
There is no indication that he thinks these leaders are all sinless. There is much more scripture that I would like to go in to on this one but this post is going to be far to long. Check out Ez 33 if you get a chance. *****
And what is so wrong with wondering if the Pope is messing around with those nuns? He knew about all those other Bishops, and others in the church, messing around in the church, and did nothing about it. Oh yes, your right, he made up some more moral rules.
**** Well for one thing until I have hard eveidence it is simply gossip. That is a sin in our Church Sherrie. How about yours. ****
Don't you ever want to say what is this Pope guy thinking? Or do you really think this guy is the next guy in line to be Christ?
**** Well, I have read some of his works and heard him speak. I know he has alot better knowledge and understanding of Jesus Christ than anyone on this board. *****
Listen to this even; heres an eye opener for you, he has no connections to those dead Apostles. Mary doesn't even hear him.
**** Once again Sherrie. I need scripture. Where does it say that those in heaven do not hear those on earth. Scripture says we are "surrounded by a cloud of witnesses". In Luke's Gospel Jesus tells the apostles that they shall sit on thrones and judge nations in his kingdom (which in the book of revalations, chapter 8 I believe we see 24 elders sitting on thrones. This from my understanding is interpruted as the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Isreal and the 12 Apostles). It also says there is great joy in heaven amongst the angels over one repentent sinner.
Luke 15:10
"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
How do they know of his true heartfelt repentence unless they hear it? We are told that we shall be like angels when we are in heaven so I see no reason to think that we will not experience this joy also. Your not given me alot of scripture Sherrie, Just regurgitating the same old lines I have heard from Protestants a hundred times. Let your mind rome a bit. Go beyond what you have been told about us Catholics and what we believe. I have added you to my prayer list.
"If you have something to repent of; God gave His Son Jesus. Jesus died on the cross. Jesus shed His blood for us. Jesus sent His Holy Spirit. Jesus taught us how to pray to the Father. Jesus is our intercessor."
Amen! Well said Sherrie. Very Catholic too. Though certainly we can interceed for eachother, would you not agree?
Timothy 2:1-4
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
But I hate to tell you thiAs but you have things that you do every day that you need to repent of. So do I. We are sinners. We however grow everday in our savior Jesus Christ, rooting out those sins that are still in us. Or at least I hope you do. The new Christian is not immediately sin free. He has to grow in holliness. ***
Now I do not pretent to know everything, or anything about Catholics. So would you answer my questions. Then I might be enlightened by it.
*** I hope I did. Ask some more if you like. God bless you Sherrie ***
Sherrie
