The problem is this: the legislators do not have the backbone to do anything about it. But the problem is not the debt. We do not have to raise the debt ceiling at all...programs can be cut, and the budget balanced, without the debt ceiling being raised...
Please note these adjustments...
Everything below is in terms of trillions...
2.57 Trillion Actual annual revenue of the Fed.
-.44 trillion for defense
-.25 trillion for other discretionary spending
-.65 trillion for Social Security
-.45 trillion for medicare
-.25 trillion for medicaid
-.28 trillion for other mandatory spending (including government employees)
-.3 trillion for servicing our existing debt
+ .015 trillion additional revenue from tariff
+ .1 trillion additional revenue from closing tax loopholes
= Surplus of 65 billion dollars, to pay down the debt.
You might object, for philosophical and political reasons to DOING this, but it nevertheless CAN and SHOULD be done.
Please, NO unsubstantiated posts. If you want to respond, please provide actual numbers, as I have done. No trolling, or arguing for the sake of getting the "last word." Real numbers only in this thread, please!
Whats the worst case scenario if we don't raise the debt limit?
Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by Havensdad, Jul 24, 2011.
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Don't guess anyone actually wants to debate this issue intellectually?
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InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I might adjust some of the numbers in your example, but for the most part I agree with you that the debt could be paid down if we decided we really wanted to do it. So no argument from me!
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http://www.alternet.org/story/15175...would_vanish?akid=7299.85218.hEeYKL&rd=1&t=24
Here is how to pay down the debt. -
InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
From the article:
In other words, if the federal government started taxing the wealthy and their corporations at the same rates in effect a half-century ago, the federal debt to investors would almost totally vanish over the next decade.
LOL! The reality is that if taxes reverted to the rates of the 1960's the corporations and the wealthy would vanish--the corporations to India and Mexico and the wealthy to the Cayman Islands. -
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This format prompts the use of sound bytes.
Here is my answer to the O.P = opening post:
Worse case scenario is:
the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse ride.
See Revelation Chapter Six -
SS is a pay as you go and solvent until about 2030 with the 2.5 trillion in bonds and at that time the baby boomers will be dying off and the system will remain solvent. If you want to cut a pay as you go program then you need to lower the amount that is paid in or the government will just take the extra money and spend it. Another flawed set of numbers.
Medicare does need to be revamped. Mostly in some of its services. Your numbers may be achievable but it would take some doing.
Medicaid also could be looked at, but I am not sure it can be lowered that much. A better solution for Medicare and Medicaid is to raise the pay in from personal income to support the programs at the same time of getting rid of any fat.
Government employees. yes i agree. There is too much government. One quick change could be doing away with the IRS administration as we see it today and have a flat tax no exemptions. There are many other areas as well from lower pay for some and more reasonable retirements and benefits as they have gotten out of hand in many areas.
Servicing our debt. I am not sure what you mean. The debt grows because of deficits and so far your numbers will not fix that.
Tariff could be considered if you wan to risk an increase of tariffs for our products going to other countries and possibly closing the door for American goods abroad making things worst.
Tax loopholes. yes i agree they need to be dealt with but not as a separate issue. Doing away with the IRS and going to a flat tax for personal income and industry with no exemptions fixes that and most likely more then you have listed.
So the debt is 14.5 plus trillion and too big to fix as your number cannot work. -
Number two, the age to which people are living, has increased dramatically. It is going to be WORSE by 2030. SS is not solvent, as I have already shown. I have already posted an assessment, by the SSA THEMSELVES, that says they are NOT solvent.
As far as the rest...who cares? The numbers are not flawed. The money has to be repaid. Stop putting the money in SS, and move it over to regular income. It has been done before, and can be done now.
Also, by aggressively deporting illegals, we could open up jobs to tax paying Americans, which would greatly increase tax revenue.
All you have shown, though, is that my numbers DO work! The debt is not too big to fix. -
Nope the fix you propose would kill the patient if the numbers you propose are reached and they cannot be reached. It is not possible to bring the troop home without a treaty or victory unless you want to wage war here. The debt is too high to fix and we will default in the near future.
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The debt is not too high to fix. I laid out specific counterpoints to your arguments. I countered your points, with real facts and numbers. Please do the same (and stick to the OP), or stay out of this thread. -
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I believe the debt can be fixed because, when you run the numbers, they clearly show that it can be; also, the remedies for the debt, are the same things that are needed to help the economy. -
http://ww2.cox.com/myconnection/okl...cle.cox?moduleType=apNews&articleId=D9ONABN00
Title: Obama adviser Sperling urges stepped up debt efforts,
says no time for 'doomsday scenarios'
Source: AP = Associated Press
Sorry for the 'doomsday scenario' i posited & posted earlier. On 7 Aug 2011 i will gather with my Local Church and Praise the Lord & Study His Written Word
(as usual, if the Lord tarries). -
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Tell me, who are we at "war" with? What are our targets? What are our goals? No, we are not "at war"...we are putting our troops in harms way, for a non-existent objective that could never be achieved anyway. And if you are right, and the economy is about to collapse, isn't it kind of impossible to leave them over there anyway? They will end up STRANDED overseas, without sufficient provision! So you logic is simply lacking on all points.
As far as the rest, please show HOW the numbers don't work, or start your own thread. I have given specific counterpoints in my argumentation, and I am asking, in keeping with the OP, to do the same or leave the thread. If you continue to derail the OP of the thread, I will be forced to report you. -
Whats the worst case scenario if we don't raise the debt limit?
The US dollar could plummet in exchange value and lose its role as world reserve currency. The US would no longer be able to pay its oil bill in its own currency, and as its balance of payments is heavily in the red, the US has no foreign currencies with which to pay its oil import bill. Or its manufactured goods import bill, or any other bill.
We are talking about a crisis beyond anything the world has ever seen. Does anyone think that President Obama is going to just sit there while the power of the US collapses? He doesn’t have to do so. There are presidential directives and executive orders in place, put there by George W. Bush himself, that President Obama can invoke to declare a national emergency, suspend the debt ceiling limit, and continue to issue Treasury debt. This is exactly what would happen.
The consequences would be that the power of the purse would transfer from Congress to the President. It would be the end of the power of Congress. Congress, Republicans and Democrats alike, have already given away to the President Congress’ Constitutional right to decide whether the country goes to war. Now Congress would lose its power over debt, taxes, and the budget itself.
Republicans need to decide whether the advantage of delivering a blow against “leechdom” is worth such extreme risks.
Some readers will say “this could never happen.” But Congress is already emasculating itself as a result of the Republicans’ intransigence over the debt ceiling increase. Republican Mitch McConnell and Democrat Harry Reid have come up with a proposal for a committee of Congress, called a Super Congress, that could fast-track legislation by prohibiting amendments. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/23/super-congress-debt-ceiling_n_907887.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%7C80603
In other words, the few members of the Super Congress could bypass any citizen opposition that might still be represented in the ordinary old Congress. The more likely outcomes would be an end to the mortgage interest deduction and the deductions for retirement savings. Legislation to gut the social safety net could not be amended.
A Congress that is willing to destroy its remaining power over a debt ceiling increase that is less than a Federal Reserve loan to one US bank is a Congress moved to folly by Republican intransigence.
SOURCE
War is not war until there is a formal declaration from the only entity that has the power to make the declaration. The United States congress. Otherwise we're just canon fodder the international banksters and corporitos throw at any nation that dare oppose their global empire. "If you aren't with us, you're with the terrorists" G. W. Bush. The "us" he is refering to is the corporate fascist state he and those like him belong to, not "we the people". -
The Republican's purpose is to trash the economy of the working class so that they will win the next election. The economy of our owners will be fine.
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You only have owners and masters if you give them that power.
Join the rest of us in freedom.
It is a wonderful experience. -
Get your own thread, Bill, or get on the OP please.
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