What's wrong with Catholicism?

In all the post that I have seen, John V does not ascribe to any of the basic Baptist doctrines.
He spends most of his time clouding the issues.

This is very Divisive.

I have been edited in my comments and will furthermore no longer be posting or reading this B.B.

[ January 20, 2003, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: jimslade ]

 

My only problem with Johnv is that when one is debating with a Roman Catholic in this board he sticks his nose in and takes their side in the debate. It is tough enough trying to debate with Carson Weber, CatholicConvert and the like without having some so called Baptist jumping in and taking their side. I'm sorry, I think he is a counterfeit. Could you imagine Martin Luther with that attitude?
I was unaware that being anti-catholic is a requirement for being a Baptist. What's of most concern is that every now and then, a hot topic arises, and with it arises a popular attitude of condemnation. Anyone who does not join in the condemning party, like me, gets stoned. If you say something condemning that's incorrect (the issue of papal infallibility, for example), and I post a correction, I get stoned. Would it not be more profitable to engage in healthy discussion of specific issues, rather than engage in denominational stone throwing of the whole?

Why are you a Baptist as opposed to a Roman Catholic?...How can that question be answered without being critical of Romanism which He seems to refuse to do.
It kind of makes me suspicious of him.
I'm not critical of Presbyterians either. Why am I not a Presbyterian? I'm not critical of Lutherans either. Why am I not a Lutheran? I'm not critical of the Salvation Army.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance....I have seen these fruits in John's posts. Just because you personally don't agree with his responses doesn't mean his fruit is bad.
Thank you. Your encouragement is greatfully appreciated.

John V does not ascribe to any of the basic Baptist doctrines.
Hmmm... like baptismal immersion, salvation by faith alone, and like separation of church and state? Those are among the foundations of faith for the Baptist. I am bound by my denominational affiliation to accept and believe in them. I'm not a person who takes denominational affiliation lightly. However, being anticatholic is not a basic baptist doctrine.

[ January 21, 2003, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

It's not being anti-Catholicism, it's more in that we are to be Scripturally sound, standing on the Rock of our Salvation which is Christ Jesus. Paul said to mark those who preached a different Gospel and have no fellowship with them. Catholicism does preach a different gospel. It does not adhere to John 14:6. Oh, but it says it does, yet adds sacraments, purgatory, Church membership, etc.

My biggest problem with Catholicism is the role of Mary. To Christians, she is the mother of Jesus Christ in the flesh. To Catholicism she is the mother of God, Queen of Heaven, Advocate, Co-redemptrix, Co-mediatrix, full of grace, and she instills that graces into anyone who prays her rosary.

Catholicism is a goddess worship religion. That is why I do not consider it Christian, based on the Holy Bible.

I do not condemn the members of that religion. By their choice, they are condemned already John 3:16-18. Yet, I earnestly pray they will be set free from the bondage of "works salvation". I pray that the pope's mouth will be stopped and will never utter another word until he repents unto God and puts his faith in Jesus Christ alone for Salvation.

 

A good book on the common elements between Catholics and evangelicals was written by Richard Neuhaus (sp?) and Chuck Colson entitled Evangelicals and Catholics together. I believe they have a couple of works that have come out in a semi-series on these issues.

Also, I work as a graduate assistant to William Shea at Saint Louis University, and we are sending in a final manuscript this week of a book he has written titled The Lion and the Lamb: Evangelicals and Catholics in the 20th century. This is an interesting topic and needs careful theological reflection and much less hatemongering.

 

Their claim as the one true church of Christ is an out and out lie.

Their claim as Peter being the first Pope is a lie.

Mary is never mentioned in the Bible as the mother of God, or perpetual virgin, or queen of Heaven, or co-redemptress. Mariolatry is blasphemy.

No man, including the Pope, is infallable.

Confession to a priest will not merit forgiveness from God.

Preachers are commanded, in the Bible, to be married men.

The is no purgatory.

We are to refrain from repititious prayer.

Jesus ain't on the cross no more. His likeness on the cricifix is weak and pathetic, not the glorious defeater of death. Aren't we to not make any likenesses ?

Jesus, no matter what they tell you, cannot be turned into bread. There is absolutely no real presence in the eucharist.

Rosary beads are useless.

I detest the RCC, and feel very badly about their followers, who believe the lies, and dare not speak out. My prayer for my mom, and all other Catholics, is that she can eventually see the truth.

 

Christ gave himself for sinners, not an orginization.

I take a lot of grief for my views on the RCC. And, as an ex-RCCer myself, I feel personally insulted by the lies and intimidation I was exposed to as a child.

Stick up for her if you want, that's yer perogative, but I stand by my answers.

 

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html

We could go point by point on why this document is full of lies, can't we. I don't have the time right now, nor do I feel it neccessary to back up what I say. It's allready there. They do claim to be the one true Church. They do say Mary is co-redemptrix. They do say confession to a priest is the only method of reconciliation between God, the church, and man.

I don't feel the need to go thru my life and figure out if I was really Catholic. I reject it now.

Come on down to the other religions forum, grab yer bible, and point out all the errors we Baptists make down there, if you really feel the RCC is misunderstood.

Also, don't bother explaining prayers to the saints, and Mariolatry to me. Just point it out in the Bible.

[ January 22, 2003, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

If you can defend Catholicism, then why not keep going. Defend Mormonism, Jehovah's witnesses, Moonies, Unitarian Universalists, and Muslims. They all believe they are right. They all acknowledge Jesus Christ in some way.

Falsehoods are falsehoods. Either you are a Biblical Christian standing for Biblical truth or you are a compromising heretic. You can't say that the fundamentals that Baptist uphold are true and then say that what Catholcism teaches is truth also. There is only one way to God, John 14:6. It is Christ and Him alone.

Does Catholicism accept His virgin birth? Sure.
Does Catholicism accept Him as Divine/God? Sure.
Does Catholicism accept Him as the only way? No.
On the "other religions" forum, I have posted Vatican documents that state that Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims all worship the same God as Christians and are thus worthy of our fellowship in the Lord. Catholicism adds sacraments(works) to the plan of Salvation. When Christ said it was finished, was He lying? Or did He mean "it is finished in the sacraments of the organization known as Catholicism"?

I feel the same as Bro. Curtis. Christians are supposed to stand for Biblical truth, not "church history". I was never a part of papal Catholicism and will never be.

Brian T. have you read the prayers involved in the rosary? Did you know that Mary will give anyone who says "her" rosary more graces? Did you know that 90+ % of all the "apparitions" are of Mary.

The Bible says Jesus Christ is "full of grace". Roman Catholicism says Mary is "full of grace".

Just as Roman Catholicism has compromised the Gospel for a worldly peace, so to do I see Baptist Christians compromising the Gospel for a worldly peace.

Do I judge any of you? No. The word of God has already judged you. I simply rebuke you for your compromise. Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. It has nothing to do with what Church you are a member of. It has nothing to do with you keeping the seven sacraments. It has nothing to do with the magisterium interpreting the Scriptures for you. It has nothing to do with "Church history".

Salvation rests solely by Gods grace through our faith in Christ Jesus. The Roman Catholic Church and all the other rites deny this. Visit www.vatican.va and read for yourself in light of the word of God. Roman Catholicism is a religion, nothing more.

I join with Bro. Curtis in prayer for those caught up in that religion and any other religion out there. Christ is the answer.

www.bereanbeacon.org
www.pro-gospel.org

 

Ya know, a Catholic recently asked me to point out, from the Bible, "sola scriptura" or "Bible only". I couldn't, and it surprised me. Can you point it out in the Bible for me?[/QB][/QUOTE]

Start a new thread with that question. Lets keep this thread on topic.

 

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Since Catholicism teaches that righteousness comes from the observance/obeying the sacraments, etc. and that confession means to the priest and salvation is never secure, then how can we say that Catholicism is Christian? I've seen many people confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus. Are they Christian? By their fruit you shall know them. The verses also say that with the heart man believeth unto righteousness. I would understand this to mean that I am acknowledging I am a sinner in need of a Saviour because of the transgression I have committed against a holy and righteous God. I am guilty as charged and ONLY by God's grace through my faith, not in the church pope priest sacraments works rosary saints Mary or anything else from man, faith in the Son of God Jesus Christ does Salvation come. And the Salvation that Christ gives is not merited on something we must do to receive it nor on something we must do to keep it. Paul said if anyone came preaching a different gospel to let them be accursed. Anyone who is in Catholicism is accursed, they are already condemned because they have not believed on the only begotten Son of God unto Salvation. John 3:16-18

You said the fundamentals were "who Jesus is and what He did".

From a Christian stand point who is Jesus and what did He do?

From a papal Catholicism stand point who is Jesus and what did He do?

The answers will not be the same.

 

You said Catholicism believes Christ conquered death. Then that would imply that Salvation is secure? Wouldn't it? Now, does Catholicism believe in eternal security? Yes, if you keep this this this and this. Wouldn't that be a works salvation instead of the gift of God like Scripture says?

You also said Christ died on the cross for our sins. Was it for ALL our sins? If yes, then why are "works" needed to keep a Catholic saved?

So, what you are telling me is that all the denominations are Christian and Catholicism is the "mother Church"?

Scripture says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Catholicism rejects that once it adds even one sacrament to God's plan of salvation.

Again, have you read the rosary prayers?

Also, is Mary really the "mother of God"? In light of Genesis 1:1, is Mary the mother of God?

 

If you confess from your mouth AND believe in your heart that Jesus...

I can not say that I know what Catholics believe in their hearts, but from what I hear, the only things coming out of their mouths are lies and swears.

BTW, not to get off topic, but BrianT, I thought you were a Baptist, now you say you're Protestant. Well, which is it?

I'm not going to sit here and bad-mouth anybody, but I just find that almost nothing I've heard the Catholic church endorse is scriptural.

I just thank God that He has shown me the truth.

"Praise God from Whom all blessings flow..." Amen to that!

God Bless. Bro. James

 

One must believe the Bible, the Christ of the Bible, and in the sacrifice that Christ provided for us, in order to be saved.
I was a Catholic for twenty years, then saved after hearing the message of salvation through an interdenomination organization working with students on the university campus. It was the first time I ever heard the gospel message.
I began to study the Bible. As I studied the Bible and compared the Bible its teachings to the Catholic Church's teachings, I knew I had to make a decision. I could not follow both the Bible and the Catholic Church at the same time. Both could not be right, for they were opposing systems teaching opposite things contrary one to another. One was a system of works; the other of grace. Either you were a Catholic or a Christian--you could not be knowledgeably both. One who knows what the Catholic Church teaches and knows what the Bible teches cannot be both a Catholic and Christian at the same time. You cannot be a Hindu or a Muslim and a Christian at the same time either. You must choose. Jesus said: "I am the way the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me" not by the RCC.
DHK

 

Cathecism 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

47. The RC teaches: Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. (Catechisms 968-970, 2677).

The Bible teaches: Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. I Timothy 2:5, John 14:13&14, I Peter 5:7.

Main Entry: me·di·a·trix
Pronunciation: -'A-triks
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin, feminine of mediator
Date: 15th century
: a woman who is a mediator

From the Council of Trent

1. CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
A. "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
B. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).
C. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
D. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
E. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
F. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
G. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).

2. CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"
. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12).
A. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
B. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
C. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7:25-27).
D. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).

3. Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
A. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).

4. Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."
. "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
A. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
B. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).
C. "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:21).
D. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19).
E. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).
·
Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."
. "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).
A. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law" (Gal. 5:1-3).
·
Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."
. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
A. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:13-14).

· Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
. This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.

The Romish Church now presents a fair front to the world, covering with apologies her record of horrible cruelties. She has clothed herself in Christ like garments; but she is unchanged. Every principle of popery that existed in ages past exists to-day. The doctrines devised in the darkest ages are still held. Let none deceive themselves. The popery that Protestants are now so ready to embrace and honor is the same that ruled the world in the days of the Reformation, when men of God stood up at the peril of their lives to expose her iniquity. She possesses the same pride and arrogant assumption that lorded it over kings and princes, and claimed the prerogatives of God.

Her spirit is no less cruel and despotic now than when she crushed out human liberty, and slew the saints of the Most High. Popery is just what prophecy declared that she would be,--the apostasy of the latter times. It is a part of her policy to assume the character which will best accomplish her purpose; but beneath the variable appearance of the chameleon, she conceals the invariable venom of the serpent. "We are not bound to keep faith and promises to heretics," she declares. Shall this power, whose record for a thousand years is written in the blood of the saints, be now acknowledged as a part of the church of Christ?