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Featured When are we SAVED?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by atpollard, Sep 18, 2020.

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  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    From a closed thread:

    (Gal. 3:23) Paul is referencing 'we Jews'. "we were kept under the law'.

    (Gal. 3:24) Paul is referencing Jews. "the law was our schoolmaster...that we might be justified by faith"

    (Gal. 3:25) Paul is referencing Jews. "after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

    (Gal. 3:26-29) Paul is referencing Gentiles. "For ye are all the children of god by faith in Christ Jesus"

    (Gal. 4:1-2) Paul is referencing both Jew and Gentile. "the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant.

    (Gal. 4:3-5) Paul is referencing Jews under the law. "when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world."

    (Gal. 4:6) Paul is referencing Gentile believers. "because ye are sons".

    Of course believers are children/sons of God. But, until they believe, they are not saved. They are elect, yes. They will be saved, yes. But until they exercise faith in Christ, they are lost.

    They were chosen before the foundation of the world. The are not saved till they exercise faith in Christ.

    Concerning 'reconciliation' God reconciled the whole world to Himself. (2 Cor. 5:19) That doesn't make the whole world saved.

    I understand what you're saying but I disagree. Election assures who will be saved. Salvation of that one to be saved begins with their faith in Christ.

    Quantrill

    I loved this and wanted to respond ... but the thread was closed due to length.

    You said:
    • "Of course believers are children/sons of God. But, until they believe, they are not saved. They are elect, yes. They will be saved, yes. But until they exercise faith in Christ, they are lost."
    It seems to me that it is an assumption on your part (within the context of Galatians 3-4) that the source of the faith is "people exercising faith". An alternate possibility could be "God gives them faith".
    So I was wondering, do you have any thoughts to share on the source of faith that marks "salvation"?

    Concerning the "when" of SAVED, I wanted to discuss "They were chosen before the foundation of the world. The are not saved till they exercise faith in Christ.". I wonder if we are attempting to drag God into TIME, when God exists outside of time. There is a Greek Tense that indicates that a matter is a settled disposition, that even if it has not happened yet, its outcome is absolutely certain. I believe that this is used in the so-called "Golden Chain" of Romans 8:29-30 where actions that were clearly in the past (predestined and called), actions potentially in the present (called and justified) and actions that must be in the future (glorified) are all presented in this "settled certainty" case (translated as past tense in English). I believe this might point to God existing outside of TIME where all events are settled with equal certainty. I believe someone once described it as the "eternal now". So from Man's perspective, we were CHOSEN in the PAST and SAVED in the PRESENT and will be GLORIFIED in the FUTURE, but from God's Eternal Now, we are CHOSEN-SAVED-GLORIFIED in the settled certainty of Romans 8.

    You also said:
    "I understand what you're saying but I disagree. Election assures who will be saved. Salvation of that one to be saved begins with their faith in Christ."

    I agree. Ultimately we are human beings that experience reality from a human perspective. I believe that is why most of scripture speaks to us from the human empirical point of view (speaking of the sky above and the earth below and the waters below the earth.) As human beings we know there was a time when we did not know God, and now we do. So God speaks to us of a distant past when God CHOSE us and a time when we had FAITH to believe in Him. It is something that we can relate to as human beings.

    Anyway, you raised some good points that I though were worth discussing as a topic of its own.

    When are we SAVED?
     
  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I think you already know where I stand.;)
    But he may not read this for a while, so I thought I'd flag it for him:

    @Quantrill :
    When are we SAVED?
     
  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    God said it (before the foundation of the world), that settles it, and you believe it!

    (Am I close?) :)


    It is hard to imagine that God doesn't get what He wants.
    It is also hard to say that there was never a time when I sure FELT unsaved. ;)
    So the struggle is just reconciling what God says with what we see and feel. Our "heart" may be "deceitful", but it is the only heart we have and it feels what it feels.
     
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  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    16 Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee. 1 Tim 4

    When did Timothy, and his flock, finally get 'saved'?
     
    #4 kyredneck, Sep 18, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    That's what we are trying to figure out! ;)
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Don't you think it odd that Timothy wasn't 'saved' yet?
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No not "reconciled" but reconciling the world to Himself.
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    At the exact moment of regeneration we are quickened by the Spirit,saved from our sins and possess eternal life,which was promised before the world was.
     
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  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    A person “saved” when God Holy Spirit, permanently indwells that person.

    peace to you
     
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  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    According to these, when was the believer actually saved?


    " For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

    " but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:24 ).

    " Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." ( 1 Corinthians 2:12 ).

    " But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    " ( Romans 5:8-10 ).

    Romans 8:28-30.
    Romans 9:22-24.
    John 8:43-47.
    John 17:2.

    Finally,

    " The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." ( Revelation 17:8 ).

    "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." ( Acts of the Apostles 15:18 ).

    " For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Literally translated:

    18 for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God, 1 Cor 1 YLT

    .Gospel Salvation is an ongoing, continuing process, not a one time event. What happens if one stops 'continuing' or is weak and fails to 'hold fast'?:

    ......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23


    Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22


    Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

    but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14

    Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

    Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee. 1 Tim 4:18
     
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  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    When we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, at very moment born again by act and will of God!
     
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  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Well he was saved before he heard this... This is not talking about the Salvation we need to have it is talking about Salvation we already have... Paul is telling Timothy watch out for unsound doctrine take heed to what you have already heard or you will slip into error and the ones that hear you will compound the error... Error breeds error, truth breeds truth.

    Oh and BTW... I'm not addressing Kentucky, I know how he thinks but run this thru your brain housing group, if this is your interpretation you have an unregenerate preacher, preaching to unregenerate sinners to get saved... That will NEVER work!:eek:... Brother Glen:)
     
    #13 tyndale1946, Sep 18, 2020
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  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Zactly.
     
  15. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
    Its really simple. We are saved in the order above .
     
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  16. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    This seems to point back to what Jesus did on the cross .But to BE reconciled in the sense of ' saved' to future glorification.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:8-10 ).
     
    #16 Barry Johnson, Sep 18, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I would imagine that every Christian would say the source of faith is God.
    However, the running argument here is:

    When did God give humans faith?

    A handful of people argue that God created humans with faith and humans are responsible for either leaving faith dormant or activating faith.

    Others state that faith does not exist in a human until God chooses to gift them faith when God makes them alive with Christ.

    I hold the latter view. I believe @MB holds the first view.
     
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  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    you said "
    responsible for either leaving faith dormant or activating faith" huh ? that makes no sense ? ' Activating faith ? . No we broke frame from the current set of propositions we were holding and we believed the Gospel ( Gods revelation) when we heard . Faith comes by hearing .
     
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  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Can a dead man hear?
     
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  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Then they are tares, are they not?
     
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