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Featured When are we SAVED?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by atpollard, Sep 18, 2020.

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  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it! It's a hit you between the eyes quote that rearranges your paradigm.

    It hits home right now as my Mom was just diagnosed with an incurable cancer that is at stage 4 alongside her struggles with dementia. The restoration to the norm is soon to come. Come Lord Jesus and heal us we pray.

    Peace
     
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  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I'll make my case again as best I can, sir...

    I find it contrary because I do not believe that the gift ( Romans 6:23 ) of eternal life, which is to know God and His Son ( John 17:3 ) can be "appropriated" by any means.
    As I've stated in many threads, if it's indeed a gift as the Scriptures declare, then it was given to us by the Lord...
    We did nothing to appropriate it, by faith or otherwise.

    In addition, I see that anything truly good comes from God ( John 3:27, James 1:17 ) and that it is God alone who makes men to differ from one another, not us.
    He makes one rich, and another poor, for example ( 1 Samuel 2:7, Proverbs 22:2 ).
    What do we have, as believers, that we did not receive ( 1 Corinthians 4:7 ) from the Lord?

    If even our faith is a gift ( as I see Ephesians 2:8 stating ), authored ( originated ) and finished ( perfected ) by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and it being said to be "of Christ" ( by or from Him, Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20 ) as well as being the evidence of His work in us ( Hebrews 11:1 ), then we do many things by faith...
    But we do not "appropriate" our gift of eternal life as we are already freely given it "in Christ Jesus".



    This may seem like a very small distinction to some reading this,
    but to me it's the difference between the Lord granting a person eternal life ( salvation ) based on something that we as men contribute, or granting it based on nothing that we contribute.
     
    #102 Dave G, Sep 20, 2020
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  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    @canadyjd

    Plus,

    I see nowhere in the Scriptures that salvation is said to be by faith, but rather through it ( Ephesians 2:8 ), not of works lest any man should boast ( Ephesians 2:9 ).
    Based on the language that I see in the Bible,
    If salvation could be appropriated by faith ( instead of through it ), then that would make the gift of faith into a work,
    and something that men could then use, like a crowbar, to gain God's favor...

    But the Lord Himself says that to the one who works ( does something of our own efforts ), the reward is reckoned of debt, not grace ( Romans 4:4 ).
    Grace is UNmerited favor, not merited favor.
    This we find in Romans 11:5-6 where grace is no more grace if man contributes his efforts / works.

    Many in the professing body of Christ declare that faith is not a work...
    To which I would agree wholeheartedly.

    But I disagree with them when the subject of merit comes up and they teach and preach that our faith is what actually saves us...
    That our faith in His Son and His finished work on the cross, is what God looks upon in order to grant us His favor and gifts;

    That is merit, my friends, is it not?:Sneaky

    Instead,
    I clearly see that it is His favor already being placed upon us freely and according to His own purposes and grace, given to us in Christ before the world began ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ) that determines who is saved and who is not.

    It is UNmerited, completely and totally.
     
    #103 Dave G, Sep 20, 2020
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  4. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    @canadyjd

    I like to use the analogy that if man contributes one drop ( or "erg" ) of effort to our own salvation,
    That it would be like putting a drop of raw sewage into a bucket of pure spring water...
    Our works as sinful men would be polluting His absolutely pure and holy work of saving men through strictly His grace and mercy alone.
    I find this plainly stated in Titus 3:5-6:

    " not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
    7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

    I see faith being a work of righteousness, in that only those that the Lord has made righteous by the blood of His Son, can do anything by faith.

    We believe God, and it is counted as righteousness...
    But if our righteousness is from God and our faith is from God, then we have nothing to boast in, do we?

    Except God and His mercy to us as sinners who deserve everlasting punishment.:Notworthy


    Therefore,
    Salvation is all of God, start to finish, and all of His grace and mercy.
    To me, it's the difference between "mon-erg-ism" ( God working with no cooperation from sinful men to achieve a goal ), and "syn-erg-ism" ( God working in tandem, co-operating with us as sinful men to achieve a goal ).


    Again, I admit that to many, this is a very fine distinction...
    But to me a very important-yet-fine one.
    The difference being, all of grace and none of works, or partially of God and partially of men.



    Are you following?
    To me, election, predestination, calling, justification and glorification completely strips us, as men, of contributing anything whatsoever to His work of saving someone.
     
    #104 Dave G, Sep 20, 2020
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  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    With all that said,
    Salvation is "of the Lord", not "of the Lord and "of men".

    When are we saved?

    In eternity past = Yes.
    In the present = Yes.
    In the future when Christ comes again = Yes.
    At the Judgement = Yes.

    Then, now and forthcoming, it's all of the Lord, my friends.
    He gets all the glory, and we get no credit for anything that we did, whatsoever.\:)
     
    #105 Dave G, Sep 20, 2020
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  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Man will not believe, according to Romans 3:10-18 and John 3:19-20, MB.
    Man cannot come to Christ unless they are drawn ( John 6:44 ), and we as men cannot come to Christ unless we are given to Him by the Father ( John 6:64-65 ).
    Only those in that context can do anything towards God.

    Outside of Christ we can do nothing:

    " I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." ( John 15:5 ).

    This is what the Bible says, MB.
    I didn't get this out of a theology book or from John Calvin.
    I got it straight from God's word, the words of Jesus Christ Himself.;)



    Please read it carefully, and believe the words for the words' sake, sir.
    Truly, that is the only way that I have ever done it, and I encourage anyone reading this to do the same.

    Those you call "Calvinists" never teach that anyone is forced to believe...
    But they do teach that man, left to ourselves, will not choose to believe outside of being born again.
    It is the difference of being free to believe ( which we are not because of our hardheartedness towards God ) and being freed to believe ( because of the new birth which was graciously granted to us by the power of God ).

    If you don't agree with salvation by grace alone, then I understand...
    But to me, you would rather believe that it was your belief that saved you, and not the Lord's work...independent of anything that you ever did.
    I've no wish to offend you sir,
    But that is how I understand it when you appear to fight, tooth and nail, against God having the final ( and only ) say with regard to your salvation.

    As I see it,
    You're fighting against His right to save whosoever He will, and placing yourself in the driver's seat according to "whosoever we will".

    I assure you sir,
    We will not win against Him...
    We don't have the force of will nor the power to resist His will and power...


    As a good example,
    We as men can't even stop the wind from blowing where He wants it to. :oops:
    How then do we expect to overcome this:

    " Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." ( Jeremiah 13:23 ).

    ...when all we do is turn our backs on Him continuously?
    Answer:

    "Ye must be born again."
     
    #106 Dave G, Sep 20, 2020
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  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Bible believers have no issue telling anyone and everyone God HAS reconciled their sins and dealt with them . That is the message of reconciliation. " behold the lamb of God who takes away the elects ...no wait ..the SIN OF THE WORLD .
     
  8. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'm 'determined 'by God to think Calvinism is completely false and unbiblical . Its the exact opposite of the Gospel .
     
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Your ignorance of context is apparent...
     
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you're determined by God to remain in ignorance.
     
  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    All for the Glory of God eh ?
     
  12. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Barry,
    Despite my earlier stated intention to refrain from replying,
    I've decided to answer your comment above in the hope that it will cause you to look at something more closely...

    I ask you sincerely,
    How is it that God has reconciled everyone to Himself,
    Even those He casts into Hell and judges them for their works?

    " And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."
    ( Revelation 20:12 ).

    If they are already reconciled, then there's nothing between them and the Lord ( including their sins ), Barry.
    Do you believe and teach that the Lord casts people into Hell that are indeed reconciled to God by the death of His Son, and that their sins are already dealt with and paid for?

    If so,
    How then does the Bible say that they will be judged according to their works and those things ( plural ) that are written in the books?
    Notice that it does not say that for the sin of unbelief alone that they will be judged, but for multiple things.
    To me, that is their sins, Barry.

    As I see it, you're teaching a God that not only personally loves those that He casts into Hell to suffer eternal torment ( :eek: ), but that His Son actually paid for those sins that He will then turn right around and judge them for.

    Do you believe that that is just, and according to righteousness?
    That a holy and perfectly righteous God would lie and tell people that on the one hand their sins are paid for, and then on the other tell them that they will be judged according to their works and that they are still, like the Pharisees, in their sins?


    So,
    As a Bible believer, I would have quite a bit of trouble telling someone that they have been reconciled to God, if they are an unbeliever.
     
    #112 Dave G, Sep 20, 2020
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  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    This is the message of reconciliation...
    that a person's sins are taken away by the Lamb of God.

    To whom is this word of being reconciled spoken to?
    Romans 5:10.
    Those that have already believed, or unbelievers?
    I see that it is to believers ( the elect ) alone, Barry...
    Those that the Lord has taken out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( the world ) for Himself.

    That's why I think that you are misunderstanding to whom the reconciliation applies...
    Because if it applies to all men, then most who are reconciled will end up in Hell for all eternity, as reconciled ( no longer enemies ) to God.

    To me, you're saying that God casts His friends into Hell.:Sick



    Do you really believe that He would be that vindictive and evil, as to do something as heinous as that?
     
    #113 Dave G, Sep 20, 2020
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  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Yes it does but it is Paul who is speaking of Himself.It is by Grace that Christ spoke to Paul personally. To convince Saul he was on the wrong path. Saul being a member of the Sanhedrin Tested the Spirit speaking with him and was convicted when told that it was Jesus who He persecuted. Immediately Saul submitted,believed, and asked the Lord what He would have him do.
    How do I know Paul believed in that moment. Because of his obvious conviction Paul knew he was doing wrong and he repented by his own submission to do what Jesus wanted of him.
    Don't get me wrong we are saved by Grace but only through faith
    MB
     
  15. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    The bible is not fighting with its self . We interpret the unclear with the clear on soteriology and how we are saved .( Roman's 4 +5, Ephesians, Corinthians, ect ) We can all quote one verse to refute every single position within Christianity . This is what cults do .
     
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  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    And you're not.
    MB
     
  17. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Dave its really hard to communicate with you . As calvinists go your in deep my friend. Your not engaging with anything I'm saying .
     
  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I've started a thread on reconciliation. I'm completely open for some verses that refute what I'm saying there .
     
  19. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    You can "interpret" it any way you wish, Barry.
    But I'll believe every word for myself, if you don't mind.

    To me, you are believing and teaching a God that cannot save unless we give Him permission,
    and a God that casts those that are already reconciled to Him, into Hell anyway.

    My question to you is this:

    Who do you think is more evil...the "Calvinist" God that chooses a person to salvation apart from anything they do or will, and grants them an incredible gift...
    Who has reconciled them to Himself and forgiven all their sins;

    Or the "Arminian" God who sent His Son to die for the sins of all humanity, offers salvation to anyone that will accept it by faith, and then judges those that His Son died for, and took their sins away...
    for those very sins...
    And then sends them to Hell to suffer for even one sin ( that was already paid for ) for all of eternity?

    I urge you, quite strongly, to consider my previous posts, sir.
     
  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    It will be easier if you read the thread on ' The message of reconciliation ' There i think I give a fair explanation.
     
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