28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Was He asking which commandment came first? Or which was the greatest?
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Note that I said "...as to it's occurrence."
I did not say the Rapture itself is still a mystery. That was revealed by the Spirit through Paul nearly 2,000 years ago.
No, and John does not reveal the Rapture of the Church in Revelation. Again...Paul did that.
The timing of the Rapture of the Church remains a mystery, that has not been revealed to us. But, because no other position can be reconciled, this remains the best position to embrace.
And it is quite enjoyable defending it.
;)
It can.
God calls John up...then the Tribulation begins. But as I said, I am not dogmatic on that, though I don't ridicule those who are.
Can you show me how John's experience...is physical?
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
And, you don't think his experience is prophetically significant?
Those who dwell in the Millennial Kingdom, which follows the First Resurrection, will still need to be glorified. They dwell in that Kingdom physically, which brings us back to the very first point in the other post:
If the Rapture of the Church takes place at the end of the Tribulation, then everyone on earth would be glorified, which means we nullify the possibility of a large group rebelling against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. We would have to say that glorified believers exist in that Kingdom, procreate, and the offspring that rebels are glorified people.
Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
In order to reconcile this problem we would have to say that unbelievers enter into the Kingdom, which stands in contradiction to the Lord's teaching. As mentioned, Matthew 25 makes it clear that unbelievers that physically survive the Tribulation are destroyed at the Sheep and Goat Judgment. Thus only believers who lived through the Tribulation who physically survive and stand at the Sheep and Goat Judgment enter into that Kingdom. Their offspring is the source of the rebellious group at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.
They are resurrected first and everyone is amazed. Then called up to heaven. Farfetched thinking is required to call it rapture
Splitting hairs is your forte. So where did he go? Mars?
Fertile imagination
When did he die?
He returned from the heavenly trip?
He says he will send His angels. Ever read the gospels?
1 Cor 15 is mighty clear; BOTH rapture and resurrection are separated by a fraction of a moment. Paul repeats this in Thessalonians
Already explained
Hairs split again. What is the difference between an event and its occurrence? Timing? If it is timing, Paul still went to talk about it. Why is John silent on it? Was it a mystery for John but not Paul?
What's the difference between an event and its occurrence?
They both reveal resurrection, so what's your point?
Strawmen. We have no clue when ANY of the events recorded in Revelation will transpire yet they are all there. So it is silly to claim John kept off rapture because nobody knows it's timing
Let the defense be sensible and you got yourself a buddy. I'm so in love with reason and logic and at the same time allergic to nonsense
John's experience whether physical or spiritual is John's and you MUST not extrapolate that to the church
Old Testament understanding of the Resurrection was a singular event, rather than having resurrections that occur at different time (i.e., the Rapture, the Two Witnesses, the Tribulation Martyrs, and the resurrection of both the Just and Unjust just prior to the Great White Throne). Daniel wrote...
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
This indicates a resurrection that includes both just and unjust, which is why Paul states he reveals a mystery (a previously unrevealed truth) in teaching about the Rapture of the Church. We know Scripture is not wrong, and while even if the just and unjust are resurrected at different times Daniel and every passage that indicates a resurrection that includes both just and unjust would still be true, because it is a general statement that presents facts concerning resurrection. It would be like me saying "The False Prophet, Antichrist, and Satan will be cast into Hell." Very true, but my statement might lead someone to believe that they are cast into Hell at the same time.
Now, getting back to the question, Paul teaches that everyone in the Church will be raised at the Rapture. Seeing that the unbelieving population will not enter into the Millennial Kingdom, if the Rapture takes place at the end, and the First Resurrection is the Rapture...everyone left on earth is in glorified form (which makes procreation unlikely based on Christ's statement concerning this).
But wait, we have one more problem: we do not remain on earth. We go to Heaven.
I have had to re-post this due to a quoting error that the Editor will not let me correct...it keeps putting a quote at the end, collapsing the post.
A rapture, but not The Rapture of the Church. That would have taken place at least forty two months earlier.
Yes, part of the group. In the Rapture of the Church we have both living and dead in Christ being raptured. The First Resurrection pertains only to Tribulation Martyrs.
Not at all.
Revelation gives a description of events concerning the Tribulation Period for the most part. That is the focus of the Book. No need to give an account for something already stated.
No, because "the other part of the group" are living believers, they are raptured before the Tribulation...not during it.
The resurrections in Revelation are the Two Witnesses, the Tribulation Martyrs, then the general resurrection at the Great White Throne. We could also include the notion that Antichrist suffers a mortal wound and dies, and is then resurrected, but I am not dogmatic on that because in view could be a false resurrection or a resurrection of another sort, such as a political resurrection. An example of that would be a President retaining his Office after his term comes to an end.
Nonsense. We have the OT and the NT and we work with both. Ecclesiastes famously professed ignorance over the destination of the spirits of man and animals. And if I may mention OT has very little mention of Satan. These two facts have led some into error with some doubting existence of man's spirit and the latter a literal being called Satan
It would if Daniel was all we had.
Paul's mystery is not resurrection as this was believed by Jews wel before. Recall Martha? The mystery are in the DETAILS
If there is a resurrection and rapture of the Just at the 'end', what happens to the unjust at this point?
You do not make any sense at all. Resurrection in Rev 20 is for the just. The unjust either remain dead or alive on earth and they Re the ones Satan gather to fight
Why is this? Why do they need glorified bodies?[/QUOTE]
Because everyone is resurrected by the time the world passes, both the Just and the Unjust.
Because the Rapture is a resurrection of the Church into glorified bodies. If the First Resurrection is the Rapture Paul teaches...everyone would be glorified.
Yeah, I know.
Part of the Just are resurrected in the First Resurrection. But we still have everyone in the Millennial Kingdom left who will need to be resurrected before entering eternity.
It also well known that scriptures separate resurrection of the unjust from that of the just. What do we work with? The 'understanding of the Jews or scriptures'?
An example of building doctrine from the deficiency of OT revelation
None I can find.
But Holy Spirit tells me there is a resurrection in Rev 20:4 and all its participants will never go through the second death, and there is another reported in Rev 20:5 happening in 20:11-13
Oh yes they are in 20:11-13
An even simpler fact is the Just are raised in 20:4 while the Unjust are raised much later in 20:11-13
And their respective resurrection are a thousand years apart. Not sure if this is literal but what is clear is Holy Spirit tells me they are separate events
Yes and this is why after they are raised in Rev 20:11-13, they are judged and sent straight to hell
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.