Amy,
I see the ACRT are confusing correct use of participles with the age old mantra: If I tell someone something enough times they will believe it, the white paper is red that eventually a person will believe that white is red and red is white.
"The sky is falling, the sky is falling" well this is the ACRT drum roll and they are as confused as ever.
The participle in Eph. 1:13 functions as a verb so don't let them say it is doesn’t. The participle is used this way as a verbal substantive and they know that but are just trying to confuse you. As a participle it has the charities of a verb and noun and functions like a verbal adjective. Don't pay them any mind they are confused by their ongoing determination to redefine words and twist meaning. They have been at it so long they actually believe what they preach. We will just continue to love them in their craziness.
“197. The participle, like the infinitive, is not a mood but a verbal substantive.” DM page 220.
Where does believing faith come from part 3
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benefactor, Nov 9, 2009.
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
You have no clue what you are talking about. Too bad.
A participle is not, has not ever been, and will never be a verb.
One of my professors--a Ph.D in Greek--confirmed this to us over and over and over. He was my preaching professor and required us to diagram each passage we preached in the original languages. If we ever made a main point out of a participle (as opposed to a verb) it would be as good as an instant fail.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
Oh...and by the way, my professor's PhD in Greek is not theological Greek--it is classical Greek. And in Greek (whether classical or koine), the participle is not a verb. The participle is how the action of the main verb is accomplished.
What is more the participles in Ephesians 1:13 are Aorist and Aorist participles always shows a simple event in the past, it does not a and cannot describe progress.
So, rather than enter waters that are way over your head, you would be better served to study Greek for a number of years, as I have.
Blessings in your studies,
The Archangel -
[offensive remarks removed]
And I do know the Greek and you are wrong, double wrong, triple wrong. The reason the translator’s use “believed” and “believing” is because that is how it is to be understood.
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At the risk of interrupting the discussion on Greek which leaves many of us in the dark I will respond to the title of the OP. Believing faith is the gift of God following regeneration by the Holy Spirit.
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel -
Instead you choose to believe that man is the master of his fate, the captain of his soul. If that were really true no one would be saved. -
Now, you continue to inject the personal element into a conversation that should be focused on the text not you or your professor or the so called superior education you received that makes you the Lord over all others simply by invoking your wonderful PhD professor. That is a slick Willy approach to what otherwise would have been a good discussion on the topic of Eph. 1:13.
If you can't keep personal out of the conversation then Archangel you don't need to be in it. It will serve this thread well if you reframe from injection your kingship and master mentality into the conversation as being the authority beyond all others kind of approach to belittling those you discuss a text with on the grounds that your education is superior to others because you studied under this mysterious PhD regardless of who he is. Greek was around long before you, me or your wonderful PhD guru.
If you want to discuss the topic then stay on topic and knock off the personal garbage, stop tooting your horn as you did and continue to do so. It makes you look bad because of what you did.
You don't get a free pass with me and if you want to discuss the text find but stop the phony better than others approach to the conversation and deal with facts. Don't appeal to your greatness and the one you studied under because there is thousands of PhD who are just as capable and more and it is not impressive to anyone regardless of who it is.
It amounts to trying to impress others: Look at me I did this or that. This is the games kids play and folk who think they are something they are not.
I don't care who your PhD professor is so why even inject him or her into this discussion. You are the guilty party in making this a personal discussion so get off the personal approach and let’s discuss the text, can you do that? -
Ephesians 1:13 lays out the order of salvation perfectly.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
The order is:
1. Hear the gospel
2. Believe the gospel
3. Sealed by the Holy Spirit
I would like to see just one verse that says that a person is regenerated or born again (they are the same) before one believes. If someone can show me that, I will change my mind. -
Support
The process illustrated by using the actual statements from Scripture. (NASV):
Luke 7:50 'And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit
Your faith has-------saved you
-------(God) ----He saved us ----- not on the basis of deeds (works) which we have done in righteousness
-------(God) ----He saved us ----- according to His mercy (how)
-------(God) ----He saved us ----- by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit
Man's part in salvation is to believe, "Your faith has saved you".
God the Father's part is mercy
God the Holy Spirit's part is the washing of regeneration (new birth) and renewing (of us)
Calvinism teaches that if man believes in the grace of God with faith that is not infused before regeneration (new birth -saved) that this faith is a work. In other words a sinner who believes but was not saved first (regenerated) is working for their salvation. This approach to God's word is called eisegesis, "to read into". The Scripture clearly teaches that a lost person must believe prior to being saved. Their approach starts with philosophy, human reasoning. -
Before I jump in here with you gentlemen, I think it might be best for you two to maybe step back for a second - or maybe a couple of minutes :laugh:.
Benfactor - It appears you are getting somewhat over-zealous in posting and as such are moving away from what is appropriate to inappropriate. You have decended into name calling and to degrading another, who is in fact, a brother in Christ like you are. I don't think this is typically how you deal or speak with people so "I" ask that we return to more civility here for better time and debate.
Arch - Your beginning to slide that way as well
This is just a suggestion, so take it as you wish (both of you).
Set forth 'why' you hold the view you do on the fuction of the participle with respect to the verse in question. At the very least you will know 'why' the other person holds that position (with respect to the participle) even if you might not agree. This will give others the opportunity who don't understand your points to grasp a little more the distiction you two are making and allow you as well.
This is only a thought and it might allow for some progression of the discussion. I will come in after a bit and tell you both where you are wrong, since I'm sure you will both agree my view is above contestation :laugh: -
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
If you will note, I have stuck to the issue of Greek and you are the one who said "The translators are just plain stupid idiot moron backward nitwits form stump jumping ridge in the middle of nowhere and you think you are king of them."
Do I know Greek. Yes. Did I work hard at it? Yes. Did I master it so far as to get an "A" in it? Yes. Am I thumping my own chest? Not in the least. It is a statement of fact to say I know Greek, intimately, it is not an attempt to place myself on a higher platform.
But, again, I doubt seriously that you've studied Greek in any organized way. Unfortunately, you are like someone who fancies himself a mechanic and can describe and name all the parts of the internal combustion engine, but for the life of him, he can't figure out how to put the pieces together and make it run. That's not an attack; that is an analogy used as an example.
Now, if your Greek issues are a sore spot for you, I really couldn't care less--except to encourage you to take a class in Biblical Greek. No matter what you say nouns are still nouns, verbs are still verbs, and participles are still participles and those facts will not change because you are uninformed about them or uncomfortable with them.
And do remember, in the future, that I do have a Masters Degree in this stuff, so I'm not some, how did you say, "idiot, moron, backwoods, nitwit." But, that really doesn't matter. What does matter is that I am a brother in Christ and for that reason alone you do need to watch what you say. Calling someone an idiot or moron or any of the other things you called me is simply conduct unbecoming of a Christian and, in my own opinion, it shows what is going on in your soul much more than any Greek you do or don't know.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Good to hear from you and sage advice as always. I will state for the record that, while my writing may, at time, be quite firm I have never called anyone an idiot or a moron--and I won't do that. Even though Benefactor chooses to go into name calling, I won't return evil for evil. Now, I'm sure he won't see it that way, sadly.
But, as an outside observer, your input is very refreshing. And for the record I have never "attacked" Benefactor. I don't know if he thinks a simple disagreement is an attack, but it seems like it to me.
Blessings to you. PM me if you'd like.
The Archangel -
The typical reformed position is that regeneration 'logically' precedes faith/justification but not that scripture actaully states this specifically as the order.
There are those in the reformed position that do not agree with this view though.
The other group (Arminians and Non-Cals) believe that regeneration/born again refers to salvation itself. One of my argument for this typically is due to what constitutes the new man. Old things are passed away (they are no more - no longer exist) behold all things have become new (having no taint or stain). This is not the state of a person who is not yet saved since act of salvation (justification and sanctification) removes sin and cleases us from unrighteousness and sets us apart.
Editted in - but this is for another thread :) -
Calvinists do NOT believe that an unregenerate can "believe in the grace of God" if by that you are referring to saving faith.
Unregenerates do not believe the Gospel. Believing the Gospel is the product of regeneration, being born again, being raised to spiritual life, being given a new nature.
Yet another person who still tries to argue against the Doctrines of Grace without really understanding them. -
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Regenerate
verb (used with object)
1. to effect a complete moral reform in.
2. to re-create, reconstitute, or make over, esp. in a better form or condition.
3. to revive or produce anew; bring into existence again.
4. Biology. to renew or restore (a lost, removed, or injured part).
5. Physics. to restore (a substance) to a favorable state or physical condition.
6. Electronics. to magnify the amplification of, by relaying part of the output circuit power into the input circuit.
7. Theology. to cause to be born again spiritually.
LINK
Easton's Bible Dictionary
Regeneration
Only found in Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5. This word literally means a "new birth."
LINK
Regeneration means "new birth". If you have been regenerated, you have been born again.
I want to see a verse or verses that says that a person is born again before they believe. I have never seen it.
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