Yes...just like I said.You teach that the natural man can in and of himself welcome truth, before regeneration.
That which we have without the supernatural work of God, contrary to scripture.
You teach man is just fine as he is. You claim you answered the other questions, but you have not.
That is your answer. Thst is all you can do is offer what you believe. Thanks for your response.
Where Does Faith Come From?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed1689, Jun 29, 2019.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Squire Robertsson AdministratorAdministrator
Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 9:30 AM Pacific. -
If you want to have a one on one conversation there is a feature for that. Send him a PM.
Anyone can comment on the open forum. Do not tell anyone to keep out of your "conversation" on the open forum. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
@JonC
Here is what Dr. Flowers said and I stopped and started to make sure I got this word-for-word from his mouth...
“We need the gospel, that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not that the gospel PLUS some supernatural extra work that has to happen, is the power of God unto salvation.“
“This effectual work of God that has to happen in order for someone to believe the gospel, that is difficult, at least for me, to get over.”
Dr. Roger Olson just said “okay”. He would not refute him, but you could tell he would have no of this.
Dr. Flowers has said that the gospel ALONE, not the gospel PLUS the some supernatural extra extra work, saves ppl. That’s full blown Pelagianism.
I am convinced you will say Dr. Flowers didn’t mean it that way. But that’s how he ALWAYS operates. When he’s caught with his proverbial pants down, he says he didn’t say it, it got twisted into something else. :rolleyes: -
Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it; well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men. :Whistling -
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
@JonC
Here’s the video where he said it. Go to the 57:00 and start from there. Their convo starts at around 51:40. Those are HIS words coming out of HIS mouth. The very same thing another member on here states as well.
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
@JonC
I posted the video, listen to it yourself. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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It is cowardly to attack a Christian in that person's absence.
Do you believe that that the gospel of Christ for is the power of God unto salvation? -
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
There’s a problem, w/o the Spirit, these words just whizz by as they consider them foolish, and can’t understand them. Why? They’re spiritually discerned. -
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Marooncat79 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
From Adam Clarke...
It is the power of God unto salvation - δυναμις γαρ θεου εστιν· The almighty power of God accompanies this preaching to the souls of them that believe; and the consequence is, they are saved; and what but the power of God can save a fallen, sinful soul? -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The issue is Flowers has attrubuted the gospel's power as being that it is a work of the Spirit.
The disagreement is not whether or not the Spirit is supernaturally involved but whether or not there is a special work for the elect (as opposed to a general work for all men).
I agree with you that the crux of his argument has man deternining his own salvation. But you were not exactly honest in your wording of his position. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
What is scandalous is the low view of scripture in salvation that you all have. The insufficiency of scripture you hold to. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Paul isn’t going to contradict himself.
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.[1 Corinthians 1:18-21]
Paul has qualified it here. The word of the cross(i.e. the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing. It being presented them they naturally discard it, have no desire for it. But to those who are being saved(same word of the cross being presented them) it is the power of God.
What Paul was saying is that no one is saved outside the preaching of the cross, that the Spirit works through the cross to save them that believe. Now, ppl in their fallen state will never believe. That is why it is imperative to teach that not only the gospel saves, but that the gospel preached while the Spirit works, saves ppl.
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